7 & 8 Shots, suggestions **Poll added**

[wlktheduk]

I have a hard time seeing how adding 7 or 8 shot revolvers to USPSA Revolver division would not end up in another equipment race. If 8 shot revolvers are added, I feel they will become the "must use/winning platform" because of capacity, resulting in fewer reloads (and faster stage times)

Just which revolver platform would you choose, 6 or 8 shot for classifiers like "Fluffy's Revenge 1 & 2"?

Both of those classifiers are 8 shot CoF's. (Hint: the 6 shooter MUST reload, the 8 shooter doesn't)

The Rule Book, Chapter 1: Course Design, 1.2.1.1, 1.2.1.2 and 1.2.1.3 all give an edge to an 8 shot revolver, in terms of stage design. "8 scoring hits from any single location or view" The 8 shot revolver would need fewer reloads to complete any CoF that required more then 6 scored hits.

1.2.1.1 Short Courses maximum of 8 rounds. 6 shot revolver must reload, 8 shot revolver does not.

1.2.1.2 Medium Courses maximum of 16 rounds. 6 shot revolver must reload twice, 8 shot revolver reloads once.

1.2.1.3 Long Courses maximum of 32 rounds. 6 shot revolver must reload five times, 8 shot revolver must reload three times.

Scoring 8 shot revolvers as Minor, and 6 shot revolvers as Major does not appear to me to make up for the advantage of faster overall times due to fewer reloads.

I was told that one of the secrets of success in this game, is to "just shoot all "A"s as fast as you can"

IF you can shoot all "A"s, which will be faster: (facing 4 targets, 8 scored hits)

pull trigger 8 times, OR pull trigger 6 times, RELOAD, pull trigger 2 more times?

Just my opinion, but I'd leave USPSA Revolver division as it is. And yes, I do shoot USPSA revolver (TY8817, B class)

[cliffwalsh]

This comes up about once a year.

You can all shoot your 7 or 8 or open revos in USPSA right now. We have Production, L-10, and Open. We even have new Production rules to make using your 8 shot easier. How many of you have shot your hi cap revos at majors. I would guess not too many. I know Michaels shot his at the L-10 nats but I have not seen any others. Why would the BOD change the rules for a group of shooters that do not exist other than in cyber space. If you want the rules to be changed, go out and shoot your guns at major matches. Show the BOD your numbers and maybe you can make a case for change.

[cliffwalsh]

The Rule Book, Chapter 1: Course Design, 1.2.1.1, 1.2.1.2 and 1.2.1.3 all give an edge to an 8 shot revolver, in terms of stage design. "8 scoring hits from any single location or view" The 8 shot revolver would need fewer reloads to complete any CoF that required more then 6 scored hits.

9 rounds.

[jasond]

I'm pleased that they changed the ammo behind the hip rule in production for revolvers, but what I want is Icore Limited rules for Production revos. (bobbed hammers, race holsters, grips, etc.). I can use any little advantage, believe me! This won't threaten the real Production shooters, they'll still beat me with their ugly plastic guns. This would keep an Icore shooter from having to buy a 625 to shoot USPSA, and not require other new equipment. I know I could just learn to count to 6...

This could allow for more cross over shooters from ICORE. I think we might alienate the current revo shooters by obsoleting the 6 shot guns.

Nearly every array at the local matches is 8 round neutral, 6 or 7 if there is steel. I can shoot halfway competitively with my 627 in production (some days).

[Daniele]

In the IPSC forum (GV) the proposed "6 Major, more than 6 Minor" rule was debated and rejected by most of revo shooters, they strongly believe a TRUE revo has 6 shot, of course S&W brand, better if chambered in a very large caliber (say 45?).

While other divisions have seen improvements and guns change, Revo might be called S&W625 division.

I shot my 627-8 times in Production, but it was not really fun against 20 rounds bottomfeeders; sure I could use it also in Limited (others have 18 rounds) or in Open ( 28 rounds in magazine).

At the end 686P and 627/8 are ready to run, but sleep in the safe!

[Airedale]

I suspect the major minor scoring would end up like single stack. When SS came about, there were threads about SS minor cleaning up. We now know minor isn't the way to go.

I realize the 8 round classifiers may throw things off a bit but in reality, if you make a higher class shooting an 8 shooter, so what?

I may try to convince the MD of one of our local matches to let us try it and see how the scoring works out.

I wonder if this would draw additional shooters to USPSA matches? There may be ICORE folks with 8 shooters who don't shoot USPSA.

Dave

Edited October 21, 2008 by Airedale

[DougCarden]

IMHO ......This is purely academic, since all the people that WANT to shoot revolver do so already.....We have pretty fair rules, and all the ICORE people that WANT to shoot USPSA have something that could be shot in an existing division. The thing that cuts between the two is the Power Factor.......The major power factor is what makes the big difference between the two, and that is not going to change in USPSA.

I don't like to assume, but I would gander to say that most ICORE hard core shooters have a wheelgun in the safe that they could use in USPSA, and for some reason, ..........don't.

The real question is why they don't. If we can find that out, then we can figure out a way to include them. I don't think that we need to change our rules since we don't know why they need changed, if that makes sense.......

Hey, it is early......

DougC

[David Sinko]

Keep the rules the way they are now. We don't need to split the division. We need to hold the capacity to six and keep Major/Minor scoring. I want to be able to shoot and be scored Major (sorry, ICORE) and be held accountable with a chronograph (something I have NEVER seen at any IDPA match). For a time I gave up on USPSA Revolver due to lack of local participation but I have now returned and after shooting all the other disciplines I'll continue to shoot USPSA Revolver, even if I am the only revolver shooter at the match. USPSA = Revolver Done Right.

Dave Sinko

[pskys2]

This comes up about once a year.

You can all shoot your 7 or 8 or open revos in USPSA right now. We have Production, L-10, and Open. We even have new Production rules to make using your 8 shot easier. How many of you have shot your hi cap revos at majors. I would guess not too many. I know Michaels shot his at the L-10 nats but I have not seen any others. Why would the BOD change the rules for a group of shooters that do not exist other than in cyber space. If you want the rules to be changed, go out and shoot your guns at major matches. Show the BOD your numbers and maybe you can make a case for change.

Oh Wise One, how can your thoughts be so clear?

You can also still shoot a 7 or 8 shot as MAJOR in Revolver, just don't FIRE that 7th round. What with light actions if it would be a great advantage someone would be doing it now. IPSC is a bit of another problem.

I would think that opening it up to 7/8 shots Minor would encourage a few newbies who would think they have an edge. To be shortly dropped because the edge isn't real.

And realistically you'll be saying 6 shots major - 8 shots minor the guy with the 7 shot will still be left out.

Until we can get more than 20 at an Area, or other major, Match it would probably be wise to not worry about it.

Edited October 21, 2008 by pskys2

[Carmoney]

I don't like to assume, but I would gander to say that most ICORE hard core shooters have a wheelgun in the safe that they could use in USPSA, and for some reason, ..........don't.

The real question is why they don't.

From my very casual observations, it appears that the ICORE shooters who don't shoot USPSA are somewhat uncomfortable with (1) iron sights, and (2) major loads.

I guess in my mind there is no reason to try to make USPSA Revo more like ICORE. If you want to shoot your ICORE gear, go find an ICORE match! That's what I do every now and then.

[jhgtyre]

I don't like to assume, but I would gander to say that most ICORE hard core shooters have a wheelgun in the safe that they could use in USPSA, and for some reason, ..........don't.

The real question is why they don't.

From my very casual observations, it appears that the ICORE shooters who don't shoot USPSA are somewhat uncomfortable with (1) iron sights, and (2) major loads.

I guess in my mind there is no reason to try to make USPSA Revo more like ICORE. If you want to shoot your ICORE gear, go find an ICORE match! [emphasis added - ld] That's what I do every now and then.

We are lucky here (in Phoenix) we have two ICORE matches per month. I get most of my wheel gun itch scratched shooting those.

-ld

[Tom E]

Which brings us back to letting 8 shooters shoot with the single stacks. Still a disadvantage because of reloads and single stacks really being 9 shooters, but it seems to be the best fit we have available and more shooters is usually better than less. If people find they like it (revolvers) they might just come back with a Revolver legal 6 shooter.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Sounds like the Big 10 instant replay rule: "Unless there is overwhelming and clear evidence of a mis-call, the play stands as called and is not overturned."

We don't have a consensus, there doesn't seem to be a compelling interest, and we should all get back to draw and dry-fire practice.

Thank you, class dismissed.

[Bones]

I like the idea a lot.

Here are my observations:

1) I keep hearing and reading that USPSA revolver shooters want to grow the competition base.

2) There were 170 Limited Shooters at the last IRC who were using iron sights and minor PF ammunition. Draw 25% of those at the next USPSA Revolver Nationals and you've doubled the competition base. Hell, there were a couple dozen at the East Coast Regionals who shot it in a cold, hard rain.

3) ICORE is a ~1000 member organization and ~1/4 of those members attended the IRC. Imagine what would happen to the USPSA revolver ranks if you could woo a fraction of them.

If you like USPSA Revolver as it is - great. If you want to grow the competition base - great.

In my view, however, both desires are mutually exclusive .

Craig

Edited October 21, 2008 by Bones

[jmax]

From my very casual observations, it appears that the ICORE shooters who don't shoot USPSA are somewhat uncomfortable with (1) iron sights, and (2) major loads.

I guess in my mind there is no reason to try to make USPSA Revo more like ICORE. If you want to shoot your ICORE gear, go find an ICORE match! That's what I do every now and then.

Mike,

I know a number of ICORE shooters that use iron sights in fact there were more limited shooters at the IRC than open so perhaps a biased view we have. I use iron sights and got my MB patch at Second Chance shooting a revolver with major plus 38 loads and still shoot major where appropriate. I started this and feel that USPSA needs to take a closer look at revolver shooting from a fresh perspective and look what is happening else where. I stated earlier in this thread that let the shooter choose their equipment and solution instead of perhaps archaic rules making that choice for them.

[TonyT]

jhgtyre,

Where is the second ICORE match in the Phoenix area. I know that there is one at Rio Salado where is the other and when?

Tony

I don't like to assume, but I would gander to say that most ICORE hard core shooters have a wheelgun in the safe that they could use in USPSA, and for some reason, ..........don't.

The real question is why they don't.

From my very casual observations, it appears that the ICORE shooters who don't shoot USPSA are somewhat uncomfortable with (1) iron sights, and (2) major loads.

I guess in my mind there is no reason to try to make USPSA Revo more like ICORE. If you want to shoot your ICORE gear, go find an ICORE match! [emphasis added - ld] That's what I do every now and then.

We are lucky here (in Phoenix) we have two ICORE matches per month. I get most of my wheel gun itch scratched shooting those.

-ld

[jmax]

I have one other comment, a founding principal of the sport was that is was a test bed for ideas and concepts, it appears that we have drifted away from that idea.

[cliffwalsh]

Which brings us back to letting 8 shooters shoot with the single stacks. Still a disadvantage because of reloads and single stacks really being 9 shooters, but it seems to be the best fit we have available and more shooters is usually better than less. If people find they like it (revolvers) they might just come back with a Revolver legal 6 shooter.

This is not going to happen. SS is a gun specific division, like revo. The rules spell out exactly what kind of gun you can have. You might as well be saying that we should allow SS guns in revo.

[jhgtyre]

jhgtyre,

Where is the second ICORE match in the Phoenix area. I know that there is one at Rio Salado where is the other and when?

Tony

Phoenix Rod and Gun Club at South Mountain. It is the weekend after the Rio match. PM me if you need more details.

Thanks,

-ld

[Bones]

.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Bones

[Flexmoney]

In the IPSC forum (GV) the proposed "6 Major, more than 6 Minor" rule was debated and rejected by most of revo shooters, they strongly believe a TRUE revo has 6 shot, of course S&W brand, better if chambered in a very large caliber (say 45?).

While other divisions have seen improvements and guns change, Revo might be called S&W625 division.

I shot my 627-8 times in Production, but it was not really fun against 20 rounds bottomfeeders; sure I could use it also in Limited (others have 18 rounds) or in Open ( 28 rounds in magazine).

At the end 686P and 627/8 are ready to run, but sleep in the safe!

Yikes. I can see that as an uphill battle of great magnitude. (IPSC Prod.)

It's still an uphill battle in USPSA Production, but it's closer to being manageable. USPSA Production is limited to 10+1 rounds. And, our USPSA arrays max out at 8 rounds.

That puts our hit factors lower (not quite as low as Revo division though). Lower hit factors swing more toward accuracy and a bit away from pure speed.

An 8-rev shooter is likely looking at the same number of reloads as a bottom-feeder in USPSA Production...in most cases. They just won't have as much cushion in the gun for make-up shots. And, the 8-rev reloads will be slower. (it could be fun though )

[Flexmoney]

In Revolver division, I wouldn't be so sure that 8-rev at minor power factor would be at such a disadvantage.

If I were a dedicated rev shooter and had the choice between 6-major and 8-minor...I'd give strength to 8-minor because of stage design (8-round arrays) and the lower hit factors in rev which favor accuracy (I'd be shooting Alphas anyway...making minor hurts less).

6-major gets the nod in reload speed. On a 32 round field course...that could be two extra reloads, however.

As long as everybody stays in one (Revolver) division, is there a downside to allowing 8-minor? It would be different...and people gripe about different. And, I am not one to suggest change unless there is a clear benefit to be had.

Locally, we have steel challenge and NRA-AP shooters that run revo's in the 8-round range. Lady's, juniors and seniors likely would enjoy minor? I know we'd have a chance to pick up one shooter for sure with 8-minor...as he'd get to use the gun he bought yrs ago.

[Tom E]

Anyone know how many USPSA members are revolver classified?

[Tom Mainus]

GM through D 1073

Unclassified 15,546

Total 16,619

[Carmoney]

I've participated in a lot of different types of handgun competition over the past 20 years--just about everything you can name from bowling pins to bullseye--and I have reached the conclusion that USPSA/IPSC revolver is the single most difficult shooting challenge available. When you shoot a USPSA match with a revolver, you are attacking courses of fire that clearly were not designed to be attacked with a gun that (1) has a double-action trigger pull for every shot, (2) must be reloaded every six rounds, (3) requires mastery of a complex reloading procedure, and (4) has no reciprocating action to absorb recoil and assist in returning the muzzle to zero.

Those of us who choose to shoot USPSA revolver on a serious basis are not doing it because it's easy. We're pushing ourselves, challenging ourselves--if you're the kind of shooter who looks at a big tough field stage and says "man, I sure wish they would have made this course 6-round neutral" or "man, I sure wish I had two more bullets in my gun for this one," you don't understand.