Multigun Nationals Feedback Thread

[00bullitt]

I'm of the belief that what gets measured gets improved so I felt this thread would be worthy to discuss the buzz that was heard amongst the competitors during the match.

It is meant in a positive note for future improvement.

The Clark/Shootout range was a superb facilty with abundant parking. Access to the range was quite easy. Weather was beautiful for the 3 days we were there.

I want to extend a huge Thank You to the CRO's,RO's,and match staff that volunteered to work this match.

I'll start by saying this is my third Nationals but the first of multigun. I expected it to be more along the lines of the pistol nationals format but it was not the case.

Apparently the multigun addendum does not recognize classes or stage wins as they do at the pistol nationals. Dave Thomas mentioned the lack of headquarters participation at the award ceremony which is quite disturbing. Is multigun the red headed step child of USPSA?

For a national level event I feel that the round counts were very low and did not require the skill required to test competitors for a national level event. I never had to reload my pistol. The only reload necessary for rifle was the mandatory reload required in the standards. Shotgun reloading was extremely minimal for the tactical/limited shooters and almost non existent for the open shooters.

Vendor participation was very low considering this is a multigun event and we use 3 times the gear. I saw three small vendor tables.

The prize table was somewhat bland. I saw the void of several sponsors that usually sponsor other events on a regular basis.

All squads had to shoot their final stage on Sunday prior to the scheduled award ceremony at 11am. Last shot was fired around 9:30am and final scores were posted at 12:25pm. Seems like this match could have been shot efficiently in two days so that Sunday could have been better spent on travel back home.

After the one hour discrepancy period was up,it was requested by the match officials that the competitors assist in stage breakdown prior to commencement

of the award ceremony. We all kind of just looked at each other for a moment in shock. That was a first.

One of mine and other competitors biggest gripes were the abandonement boxes. They Sucked! They were very upright and did not fit one gun well yet alone two. Several competitors guns had sights and other gun extremities get damaged. Carpeted 55 gallon barrels would have been superior and would have saved someone some sweat equity.

Food on the first two days was quite good and tasty. Good job on behalf of the Clark/Miculek girls. It would have been nice to have food on the third/last day to ease the wait time and energize before stage breakdown.

The other outlaw 3 gun/multigun matches fill up and sell out in a matter of days and sometimes seconds in some cases.

Obviously they are doing something right and may be looked upon as a role model.

What say you?

Edited October 6, 2008 by 00bullitt

[Religious Shooter]

The Nationals moves around. How successful would say SMM3G be if it was at Rio one year... then it went to Oregon... then it went to OK... then it went to LA... then it went to NJ... etc. Each time with a different crew?

The other matches generally stay at one location and the match staff are generally somewhat consistent. The Sgt. that runs Benning has written here that running big matches has a learning curve or requires X amount of experience before said matche kicks azz.

You don't have that with the USPSA MG Nationals. It's a hit or miss proposition.

[outerlimits]

i've shot four 3gun nationals and agree that they are treated as step-children. i just don't understand especially since the el prez is mr 3gun. the home office rarely puts an effort into the 3gun nats-witness reno in 2004. here we are discussing it and the results aren't even on the web yet. not even interim results from friday, sat. i like going to national matches, but these are getting to be like large area matches. dunno what to do about it, cause i doubt it will change. outlaw matches will likely continue to be the draw.

[M118LR]

For a national level event I feel that the round counts were very low and did not require the skill required to test competitors for a national level event. I never had to reload my pistol. The only reload necessary for rifle was the mandatory reload required in the standards. Shotgun reloading was extremely minimal for the tactical/limited shooters and almost non existent for the open shooters.

I heard this from a shooter that is traveling back from the match. He was VERY disappointed with the match and how it was run.

Edited October 6, 2008 by M118LR

[LChico]

i've shot four 3gun nationals and agree that they are treated as step-children. i just don't understand especially since the el prez is mr 3gun. the home office rarely puts an effort into the 3gun nats-witness reno in 2004. here we are discussing it and the results aren't even on the web yet. not even interim results from friday, sat. i like going to national matches, but these are getting to be like large area matches. dunno what to do about it, cause i doubt it will change. outlaw matches will likely continue to be the draw.

The problem with posting is NOT at the national office, but rather the administrative staff of this match. The match director has to request an upload password from the USPSA site webmaster. That is when the name of the match appears on the "Major match" page for USPSA. Clearly, that was not done yet.

The main office does not do the upload - the chief statistician or the match director does that.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

[Larry LeBeau]

First thing is that any club that is willing to put on a large match like the nat. should get the thanx of all of the shooters that where there or not, remeber this is all vollentier work.. Next the folks in the east want it in the east and the same for the folks in the west, lets try to keep it central as much as possible, but this is not as easy as it sounds, how many clubs are big enough to put on a large macth or have the man power to do so? Is the location a reason for or against you going ie. If you live in { no offence} Fargo and you tell your wife your going to Little town usa for a match she goes 'have a nice time Dear" If you say its in Las Vegas the response is " when are WE leaven" so lacation does at time make a differants. We all make time and seem to have enough $$$ to make certain matchs that for what ever reason we seem to like. What have been the most popular 3 gun nats. the last say 5 years?? Why, the reasons of course will very, are job is to find those reasons. and put forth an effort to find a place to keep the nats in one spot. Just the ramblings of an old man.....

[wgnoyes]

The problem with posting is NOT at the national office, but rather the administrative staff of this match. The match director has to request an upload password from the USPSA site webmaster. That is when the name of the match appears on the "Major match" page for USPSA. Clearly, that was not done yet.

The main office does not do the upload - the chief statistician or the match director does that.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

I might have to disagree with this one. This was a USPSA national championship. Why wouldn't Sedro Woolley carve out 2 minutes to create an upload area for their own match? It's ultimately their show, even if they do outsource it to another concern.

Jeez, and it's STILL not done! Hold on..... Okay, I just created an upload area myself and notified MD Ken Hicks of the password. Maybe he can pass it on to whoever has the ezws match file.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Glad this thread is going because I have a few thoughts on this.

First, a huge thanks to the match staff who made this all possible. The ROs were great and fair across the board.

This was my first time at the Princeton Range and I was very impressed with the facility. Nice bays, plenty of room, great parking, and lots of Grass (not dirt and rocks like where I normally shoot).

There were a few issues that need to be addressed.

First Issue - Match Tear Down. I don't have much experience with large matches, but is it normal for shooters to be asked to help tear down the stages at the end of a National Championship match? And why did they wait until the end of the arbitration period when EVERYONE expected the awards portion to begin to even ask for help. Normally I'm one of the first guys to help tear down stages at local matches, but it just strikes me as wrong to expect shooters to do this at a National Level match, especially when the appearance is that the results are being held "hostage" until the work is completed.

Second issue - Lack of HQs Support. Dave Thomas mentioned that the MG Nationals didn't receive the level of support it deserved from the National HQs. I'm not privy to the inner workings of the USPSA HQs, but WHY didn't this match receive the same support as the pistol Nationals? WHO made the decision to low-ball home-office support? This is obviously a problem (and has been for at least the past two years) that the HQs leadership acknowledges, so why don't they FIX it??? Inquring members (voters) want to know.

Third issue - Scheduling. There's no good reason there weren't a couple free entry certifcates on the prize table for NEXT years MG Nationals. It should already be locked in for dates and venue (along with ALL the Pistol Nationals). We working folks (at least 80% of the USPSA membership) need to be able to make plans, schedule vacations, etc - the farther out the better. It shouldn't be that hard for USPSA to figure out when and where a National Championship match will take place one year out.

Thanks again to the hard-working ROs and staff that made it all possible.

[ima45dv8]

First Issue - Match Tear Down. I don't have much experience with large matches, but is it normal for shooters to be asked to help tear down the stages at the end of a National Championship match? And why did they wait until the end of the arbitration period when EVERYONE expected the awards portion to begin to even ask for help. Normally I'm one of the first guys to help tear down stages at local matches, but it just strikes me as wrong to expect shooters to do this at a National Level match, especially when the appearance is that the results are being held "hostage" until the work is completed.

I wasn't there, but have been involved in the production of a few area-level (handgun) events. One thing we always struggle with is the timing of tear-down. It cannot begin until the 1 hour contestation period has expired for the very reason that the bitch-and-gripe session exists -- to allow shooters who may have verifiable issues with the scores to have them rectified. In some cases this may mean a reshoot of a particular course of fire. If the stages are torn down as soon as the preliminary results are posted that might prevent a required reshoot.

As to the second point, we generally have a dedicated staff to do tear-down. That's not to say we turn down offers of assistance during this unpleasant task, but usually it is not required. To have the shooters told at the last minute that they need to tear down the match doesn't seem fitting for a Nationals-level event.

Second issue - Lack of HQs Support. Dave Thomas mentioned that the MG Nationals didn't receive the level of support it deserved from the National HQs. I'm not privy to the inner workings of the USPSA HQs, but WHY didn't this match receive the same support as the pistol Nationals? WHO made the decision to low-ball home-office support? This is obviously a problem (and has been for at least the past two years) that the HQs leadership acknowledges, so why don't they FIX it??? Inquring members (voters) want to know.

I'd like to know those answers, too. I'll venture a guess and say the the timing - holding this event hot on the heels of the dual handgun Nationals - might have something to do with it. If that's the case, maybe holding the Multigun Nationals in the Spring would give out HQ resources time to regroup and participate at a higher level.

[STInky]

So what time did all of the festivities conclude yesterday......????? I waited around until 12:30 when they announced that we would have to wait 1 more hour .... Some folks that were talking said we may be able to waive to 1 hr. period, but the MD said "NO!".

I hated to leave without seeing the ceremony and a possible prize or two......but I had to get back home due to child care issues.

I can only imagine the comments and grumbling going on when they announced that it was time to tear down the stages !!!!!!

Overall I had a great time......got to shoot with a great group of guys (go squad 10!). The range facilities were very nice and well suited to this size match. There was ample parking for another 120 shooters, should the match had filled up to capacity.

I did feel like I got hosed on a call by one of the RO's, but not being one to rock the boat I did not push the issue. It was first stage one day 2, and I didn't want to put our squad behind right off the bat.

Thanks to the Staff and the RO's for all your hard work......they didn't even get a chance to shoot the match !!!!! When we finished up our last stage on Sunday, one of the RO's for that stage brought out his pistol/shotgun and shot the stage just for fun !!!!

Here is my vote for moving next years match to Fort Smith, AR !!!! Great bunch of guys there and a very nice range. Oh, and then there is David Hyden.......

[vsound]

I have to agree with most of the comments being posted. First, I have to acknowledge the hard work put in by the ROs. Without them, it wouldn't have happened at all.

It was my first opportunity to shoot a National level match, and as an added bonus, it just so happened to be a multigun match. However, this match was not run as though it were a national level match. It felt more like an area match, or even a section match, but using three guns instead of one. There was inconsistency stage to stage in terms of rules. Some stages pre-loaded only after all competitors were back, some pre-loaded tubes but not chamber, and one pre-loaded tubes and chamber. Competitors didn't know from stage to stage how to handle the long guns without running the risk of being DQ'd for something they just did on the previous stage.

Round counts could definitely have been higher. As stated, the only reload for rifle was a mandatory one on the standards stage. No pistol reloads. Shotgun reloads were probably okay, but there was no mix and match of birdshot vs. slug. No thought had to be put in as to how to tackle the stages. Everything was straight forward. There were some fun stages, but they just weren't as challenging as I would expect a national level match to be.

Retention boxes were not good. I realize a lot of effort went into building them just before the match, but simply making them wider would have saved a lot of grief. Or, as others noted, use barrels.

Major/minor really just needs to be eliminated for a match such as this. It created scoring problems and really is not needed when you're doing multiple guns. They need to just have minimum calibers (e.g. 9mm, .223, and 12 ga.) for Lim, Tac, and Open, and designate a Heavy Metal class for those that want to shoot heavier stuff. Shoot everything major as long as it meets the minimums. If someone chooses to shoot .40 in Tac, or 9mm in Lim, etc., so be it.

Chamber flags. Fortunately, at the last moment I remembered someone mentioning the need for chamber flags, so I brought mine. But, a lot of other folks didn't get word, or forgot, or whatever. No flags were available at the match, so everyone had to improvise with pieces of rope, cut up shotshells, etc., etc. A national level match should have made sure flags were available, even if for purchase.

Lack of support from HQ was a big downer. We paid a much higher entry fee for this over what a section match would cost, and yet the prize tables are typically much better at the section matches. We didn't even stick around for the prizes at this match. It was more valuable for us to get on the road than to stick around for a few small items on the prize table.

Bottom line, we still had a good time, and because of the location, if they host another multigun there, we'll be back. But, we would like to see more input from HQ and we would like to see the organizers learning from the other big multigun matches. Others have referred to RM3G, DPMS-TG, and others as the "outlaw" matches, but from our experience and what we heard from others, USPSA multigun is really the "outlaw" match.

[kurtm]

I wasn't there, but I will answer a couple of posts anyway. First, to say that the Nationals ( at least the two I have attended) are "like a big area match" does GREAT disservice to several of the "big area matches" I have shot. I would happily trade the two Nationals I shot for a Area 6 3-gun match, or even drop a level or two and say that I would happily trade them for a Texas State 3-gun, OR Arkansas State 3-gun.

Relig, your statement doesn't wash at all, because they seem to be able to do it every year for the PISTOL Nationals, with a lot more stages and it has moved around a bunch!

Congratulations to Bruce Piatt, LTD. National Champion!! Kurt Miller

[Jack T]

Thanks to all the guys that busted their butts to get this match off the ground. I understand there were only seven (7) personnel to set up the stages.

I hate no shoots!! Just like the Florida Open; Who needs them. It's like adding insult to injury. I think there was an extra case of targets, didn't know what to do with them and decided to distribute them on all the stages (Except Rifle Standards). The difficulty factor can be added in by good stage design and utilizition of hard cover.

Planning for next years Multigun Nationals shold begin TODAY!! The planning should begin the following day just like the Outlaw matches do. But, it ain't gonna happen now is it?

I recommend there be an East Coast Regional (Titusville, FL I-95) and a West Coast Regional (Where ever) for the Multigun Nationals. There is no doubt in my mind if we hosted a National event we could fill it (Area 6). The only problem is the West Coast guys don't like it because we don't have ranges that generally go over 200 yards.

Plus, we have warmer weather. I am from Florida and Friday Morning destroyed me. I can not function below 60 degrees!!

Again, thanks to all the guys behind the scenes that volunteer their time to make these matches happen.

Jack

[Roy T]

I have been planning to do a FL. State 3gun championship but after hearing all the discontent it appears I will think twice about asking supporters to give of their time and effort for what appears to be an impossible task. I think it may become another of those "outlaw matches" where we just concentrate on having fun.

[Jack T]

I have been planning to do a FL. State 3gun championship but after hearing all the discontent it appears I will think twice about asking supporters to give of their time and effort for what appears to be an impossible task. I think it may become another of those "outlaw matches" where we just concentrate on having fun.

Roy,

You guys could set up a kick ass match there, but again, we can't go out to distance. I can live without the long range shooting, most of us stink at it anyway down in Florida.

The monthly matches are second to none and the support personnel are the best. You guys need to go for it. One of the biggest mistakes I seem to see, is making decisions in a vacumm. Get outside ideas for stages from GM's down to newbies. We all have different ideas on what makes a great stage design. But you can't beat balance and the key word is FUN. I'll head over and help build stages if you do it.

Jack

[Roy T]

Thanks Jack;

I have been talking to folks from the Benning match and others who have done it for a while and they were exceptional in their willingness to give advice. I am hoping that a contact that is within 15 minutes drive of my facility may provide us with a rifle venue that would make the logistics a lot better and provide some distance for the rifle will be available (with my eyes 150-200 yds is distance). I think it can be done but my staff does the Open and we are doing the State match in 09 so I have to be careful about how much I ask them to do before they use me for the long range target. Thanks for the offer to help (you may regret that). I would like for it to be balanced enough that the winner was the best 3gunner not just really strong in one area and overcame the other 2 guns.

[Benelli Chick]

Thanks to everyone for their hard work on this match!

But, as a "Nationals" match, it's supposed to have National Champions. First, no trophy for top ladies Jessie and Kay M. If we want to encourage ladies and juniors, there should be a trophy if there's only one!!! No juniors, but more than one lady in each of two divisions. Then...they didn't even announce the top ladies until one of the shooters asked who won, and when we were all clapping for Jessie, no one even heard Kay's name!

Before the match, I, a tactical shooter, saw on the website He-Man (Heavy Metal) would be recognized. Then apparently, there weren't enough after a bunch of people didn't show and a shooter was informed on Sunday morning, after he shot his last stage with .308, pump and limited pistol mags, that it would no longer be recognized! He came in 15th in tactical anyway, but come on!!! The trophy was already done, wasn't it? You can't say yes and then yank it without giving him a chance to shoot something else! That was poor form.

The range was very nice, but there really weren't enough big berms for a 3-Gun match. The berms are pretty low as well. I agree that a little field course on the 300 would have been an improvement. It's a beautiful pistol range, but not so great for 3-Gun. I did like the grass and no rocks and dirt though. And thanks so much to the Clark-Miculek families for allowing us to invade their space. And the Clark girls did GREAT food!

As far as being the poor stepchild...when we got to the range on Thursday, there was no one but one other lost shooter there and his wife. There were no banners, the only sign said there was a concealed carry class there. IF it weren't for the stages set up that basically looked like what I ran off the internet, I would have thought I was in the wrong place. I kind of did anyway.

Wayne told us he wasn't allowed to put up banners without direction, so other than Doctor, no sponsor banners were put up until Saturday. It felt very lonely there.

Registration was an hour late, not at the range, and we didn't get our badges until Friday morning at the range and our pins until Saturday. Seems like the USPSA organization was behind in shipping or whatever. Maybe it's just because we go to Raton, which is in the middle of no where, but we bring all our stuff with us, 'cause we know we're going to need it! I know the badges were made early, because there was one there for Darrell, who's been...well dead for 6 weeks, and USPSA knew he wasn't coming for at least a month.

I really appreciate all the work everyone did, but it seemed like so many of the staff of this match were handicapped by being told to not step out of their area, even to get things done that needed to be done. Getting ready to go to Virginia to talk to the NRA, this match gave me way too good a look at bureacracy at its finest!

That said, I had a good time. Got to shoot! Got to talk a little bit! Got to shoot with people I've really never shot with before and they were great! Go squad 11! Thanks to Dale and Texas for my Starbucks! Thanks to everyone for chatting and being awesome people!

Denise

P.S.

For heavens sake, just go to the store and buy 35 gallon trash cans and little bathrooms trashcans for the pistols and call it done!!!! (I know, you can't get your wife to buy you any tools for those!)

[lmccrock]

This was my second Nationals, the other being the 2007 Multi-gun in Tulsa.

What is "headquarters support"? What would have been different? Michael Voigt did not stay for the awards, but that is not his job.

The prize table was richer at last year's multi-gun in Tulsa, at least in my lowly standing. Lots of Safariland stuff; thanks to them.

1. Yes, more rounds.

2. Yes, enough rounds for an occasional reload. I am not looking for a standards fest with lots of mandatory reloads, but dropping a mag and stuffing in a full one is a skill to test. The only pistol and rifle reloads I saw (outside the rifle standards stage) were when mags inadvertently dropped out.

3. I need a clarification on "Make ready" in multi-gun. On one stage I paused waiting the 2nd gun's "Make ready", and the RO said it was not necessary, even though another RO (an earlier stage) thought it was.

4. Competitor teardown - (grumble, grumble). Certainly made it easier for the hard working small match staff, and Jerry, Kay, et al. However, I am paying extra for a NATIONALS and I do not expect to go to my bag and get out the work gloves. And, since there was a multi-hour lag between shooting being completed and awards, some folks went back to their rooms to shower and get ready for the trip home.

5. The first 2 days' start time was 8:00, Sunday was 8:30. To get folks on the road earlier, the 8:00 time would help Sunday. Of course, then someone would complain they REALLY needed the extra half-hour sleep.

what time did all of the festivities conclude yesterday

Announcement regarding teardown around 1:30, awards started about 1:45, prizes done before 3pm.

Some stages pre-loaded only after all competitors were back...and one pre-loaded tubes and chamber

This was somewhat dependent on how many RO's were at a stage. If there was an RO dedicated to watch a table of loaded guns, they would load more than just the on-deck shooter. I do not remember EVER loading a chamber until the RO said "Make ready" at the line.

Major/minor really just needs to be eliminated for a match such as this.

This match had dedicated rifle targets and pistol targets. So splitting them while scoring is not a big deal. The stats folks had to deal with it back end. Does EZWS do it automatically?

Lee

[bigbrowndog]

From the sounds of it, it looks like LTD, had more top shooters show up than the other divisions,........................Yea!!! IRON SIGHTS.

If what Denise says is true about Heavy Metal, that blows really big chunks, I know I would be LIVID!!!!!! and have demanded my entry fee back.

Congrats to Bruce, and that KN3 guy too.

Trapr

[kellyn]

Given the wealth of fantastic three gun matches out there, I think this will be my last Multigun Nationals for a while.

Thanks to the ROs for their work. And congrats to the winners, especially Bruce Piatt, who to my knowledge, is the only person to have won a multigun/3 gun National Championship in more than one equipment division.

[00bullitt]

I'm just hoping sooner or later the scores will actually get posted to USPSA for all to see now that Bill has the port set up. There were never any overalls posted for us to see at the range and I'm sure some folks would like to see just how close things were.

[uscbigdawg]

Kelly - Taran has a Limited and of course Tactical at Nationals.

Rich

[Religious Shooter]

Relig, your statement doesn't wash at all, because they seem to be able to do it every year for the PISTOL Nationals, with a lot more stages and it has moved around a bunch!

The Pistol Nationals is put on by experienced crews and on a lot occasions the clubs that put it on have put it on before.

Take a look at the MG Nationals:

2008 LA

2007 Tulsa, OK

2006 Albany, OR

2005 Las Vegas, NV

2004 Reno, NV

... no repeats at all. No way for the crews who put it on to build on their experience.

Looking at the Limited Nationals (Pistol) for the same period:

2008 Tulsa, OK

2007 Tulsa, OK

2006 Barry, IL

2005 Barry, IL

2004 Barry, IL

Repeats.

And then look at SMM3G for the same period...

2008 Rio Salado

2007 Rio Salado

2006 Rio Salado

2005 Rio Salado

2004 Rio Salado

And look at RM3G for the same period...

2008 Raton, NM

2007 Raton, NM

2006 Raton, NM

2005 Raton, NM

2004 Raton, NM

[TRUBL]

It 's not WHERE they hold it....it's WHO is in charge.

[vsound]

Some stages pre-loaded only after all competitors were back...and one pre-loaded tubes and chamber

This was somewhat dependent on how many RO's were at a stage. If there was an RO dedicated to watch a table of loaded guns, they would load more than just the on-deck shooter. I do not remember EVER loading a chamber until the RO said "Make ready" at the line.

We had one stage that had us load the chamber on the pre-loading table. We did as they asked, but we were surprised by it.

Major/minor really just needs to be eliminated for a match such as this.

This match had dedicated rifle targets and pistol targets. So splitting them while scoring is not a big deal. The stats folks had to deal with it back end. Does EZWS do it automatically?

Lee

EZWS does not handle major/minor with multigun. I talked to the stats girl about it because I was confused when looking at the scores. She said the whole match had to be scored as major, then they have to enter additional penalty points for anything that has a minor hit. A BIG pain in the rear for her. Kudos to her because she did the best she could with what she had to work with, but it was certainly not easy to do (thus the delays in posting the final scores).