Open / L-10 Nats Banter

[ysued]

Just got back to Boulder, I left the match hotel about 3:30am... I was a little disappointed when the receptionist at the hotel showed me a cardboard box with about half a dozen wooden USPSA plaques and stage medals and asked me if I knew who they belonged to. It seems that the hotel staff were picking them up off the floor where they were presumably discarded by their recipients.

Now, I'll be the first to acknowledge that these wooden plaques are not the most attractive trophies (it may be time for a redesign) but I think it's a little disrespectful to just throw them away at the hotel or leave them lying around for the hotel staff to pick up and dispose of.

This is sad!!

This give a really negative impression of of us, the shooters!

Why do we shoot?? For a prize table??

I shoot for fun, the plaque or medal is just a bonus, but I would certainly wouldn't leave it behind, or discard it. I agree, that is just rude and disrespectful tot he organization and the rest of the shooters that would have loved to walk up to the stage and received that plaque, medal and the applause of the rest of the audience.

Do you just just for the Prize table??

Let's put numbers to paper

If you shot the two matches.....

Plane Ticket or Driving +/- $500

Hotel +/- $1000

Meals +/- $400

Ammo +/- $200

Match Fees +/- $500 (Depending on whether you earned your Slot or got it later)

Time spent practicing and attending the Event....Priceless!!

That adds up to +/- $2600

In order to break even, you would have to win that much.

So if you went to the nationals and won a $300 STI Fame, you lost money, and if went to the nationals just for the rize you were going to win, you need to go to business school.

I don't think even the match winner made enough money to offset the expenses.

Anyhow, most of the stuff won at the prize table will end up listed on the classifieds here or sold at Local matches anyway.

OK, rant over, I feel better now.

[Unleashed]

There are drainage pipes on the back berm. I was at the range while they were still putting the berms in and saw them. I don't know what the final result will be with USSA. I do know that there is no place in the country that can boast perfect weather and perfect conditions for every major match, and still has the space for a Nationals. I've shot in miserable heat, pouring rain and seen tornadoes in the distance at PASA. I think it was 2001 when all the RO's had to rebuild the match after the damage done overnight. I've shot at Rio Salado in March, normally one of the nicest ranges with the best weather around, and I was snowed on and the rain came by the bucket. I've shot in Frostproof in driving rain and...well frost. Nowhere is perfect. Tulsa has had a couple rough years of weather. I think everyone at USSA is trying to fix the problem. Everyone there is committed to it's success. I know Phil and Mike didn't move to Tulsa just to see the range fail. And I know Tom well enough to know if it can be fixed, it will.

As far as the USPSA/USSA contract. The last word I heard was that it had not been approved yet. Unless someone has some credible information to the contrary, I think it is still in the works. There are a couple AD's in this thread. I'm sure if they want to they can enlighten us as to where that contract process is at.

Every large corporation that conducts any business affected by the weather usually consults a forecaster before making any longterm (3-6 months) decision. Retailers are one of the most notable....For instance, A Walmart store in OK wants to know how soon to stock winter clothes if it's going to get cold earlier than usual.

My point is, maybe USPSA and USSA should think about consulting a specialist about possible locations and time periods to conduct matches/training. Maybe there is a shooter or two that could "point them in the right direction".

As for the comment about 1 hour of rain....I made that comment and was referring to "IKE". I know it rained on the first day of the match, and several times after that...leading up to about 1 hour of rainfall directly related to the tropical system known by the same name as the one that was less than cordial to Tina!

I would appreciate it if noone ever again referred to Tulsa, OK as being in the path of Hurricanes again.....that's just silly

Edited September 15, 2008 by Unleashed

[blownhemi]

I think some of you have forgotten the meaning of the word Practical.

That means we shoot when it's stinking hot or when it's pissing down rain. I bet some of you guys would be complaining because the range didn't have enough shade if it was sunny the whole time.

As for the trophy situation, I can't understand leaving behind a trophy from a Nationals regardless of where you finished. Leaving them behind shows a lack of class. Those who did so should be named and shamed.

[Chuck Anderson]

Every large corporation that conducts any business affected by the weather usually consults a forecaster before making any longterm (3-6 months) decision. Retailers are one of the most notable....For instance, A Walmart store in OK wants to know how soon to stock winter clothes if it's going to get cold earlier than usual.

My point is, maybe USPSA and USSA should think about consulting a specialist about possible locations and time periods to conduct matches/training. Maybe there is a shooter or two that could "point them in the right direction".

Guess what, they have and they keep getting September as what is supposed to be an ideal month for weather. If you look at historical patterns, it should be a good month with good weather. But that is in the way long range. Can you imagine if USPSA contracted some weather witch doctor 3 months before Nationals and decided two weeks earlier would be a better time slot? People are complaining now about not knowing the location/date/time of the match a year out and you want to shrink that gap to 3-6 months? Sorry, not gonna happen. Normally September has been a good month, in fact it was beautiful on Sunday as we were hopping on the plane, sunny, not a cloud in the sky, hardly any humidity. It was also pretty good weather for the LPR match. So we had a little rain on Sat of LPR, and a lot on Wed, Thurs AM and again on Saturday. If you look at the two weeks of weather leading up to both matches it was really good weather. My guess is the next two weeks will be good as well. USPSA just seems to have bad luck.

Edited September 15, 2008 by Lawman

[XRe]

I think some of you have forgotten the meaning of the word Practical.

That means we shoot when it's stinking hot or when it's pissing down rain. I bet some of you guys would be complaining because the range didn't have enough shade if it was sunny the whole time.

I think you're missing the point - no one's complaining about the rain. They're complaining about several inches of mud and standing water that made the range unsafe to shoot on. Sure, the rain has an effect, but there's nothing to do about it except deal with it. The mud is a different story...

[Flexmoney]

Just got back to Boulder, I left the match hotel about 3:30am... I was a little disappointed when the receptionist at the hotel showed me a cardboard box with about half a dozen wooden USPSA plaques and stage medals and asked me if I knew who they belonged to. It seems that the hotel staff were picking them up off the floor where they were presumably discarded by their recipients.

Now, I'll be the first to acknowledge that these wooden plaques are not the most attractive trophies (it may be time for a redesign) but I think it's a little disrespectful to just throw them away at the hotel or leave them lying around for the hotel staff to pick up and dispose of.

This is sad!!

This give a really negative impression of of us, the shooters!

Hold on there.

I've seen shooters toss their (not first place) plaques away...AT THE RANGE. I don't think any shooter should do that (but it is their plaque to do with as they please, I guess). If you want to toss it, don't do it in front of all the people that didn't win the plaques and would have liked to.

But...I think we might be making assumptions here. I'm not sure how many plaques we are talking about? It might not have been a shooter at all if it was more than a couple, right?

Regardless, if a shooter threw out their plaque at in the privacy of their hotel room...them good on them for doing that away from eyesight.

There is no disrespect...nor negative impression...in that, unless somebody posts it on the internet for all to see.

[shred]

I think some of you have forgotten the meaning of the word Practical.

That means we shoot when it's stinking hot or when it's pissing down rain. I bet some of you guys would be complaining because the range didn't have enough shade if it was sunny the whole time.

I think you're missing the point - no one's complaining about the rain. They're complaining about several inches of mud and standing water that made the range unsafe to shoot on. Sure, the rain has an effect, but there's nothing to do about it except deal with it. The mud is a different story...

Exactly... Rain happens, and should be expected. That means both shooters and the range should be able to handle it except in extreme cases. This wasn't epic rain by any means. Tulsa got less than an inch spread over the 3 days of the match. Some of the bays up front dried ok on Friday, but the big ones in the back didn't. That's what people are having issues with.

[Flexmoney]

I think some of you have forgotten the meaning of the word Practical.

That means we shoot when it's stinking hot or when it's pissing down rain. I bet some of you guys would be complaining because the range didn't have enough shade if it was sunny the whole time.

I think you're missing the point - no one's complaining about the rain. They're complaining about several inches of mud and standing water that made the range unsafe to shoot on. Sure, the rain has an effect, but there's nothing to do about it except deal with it. The mud is a different story...

I dunno, Dave. I think you both have a good point.

People are most certainly complaining about the rain. And, hemi is right...they have complained about not having enough shade at other matches (along with dust, hills to walk, morning fog, etc.). If you check out the downrangeTV blog, there is an interview on there with a couple of the lady competitors, one from PacNW and one from PHX. One preferred the rain and didn't like the warm and humid, while the other was the opposite...at this match.

Mud has been a major factor in many a battle, both in sport and in war. You are right though, if it can be avoided...it sure would make things just plain better for us.

---------------------

We had a mud bowl at an Ohio Championship match a few years back. The range owners had done a lot to try to prevent that. Mother Nature had her own ideas. They have the best range in Ohio, and one of only few that CAN host a major match. But, with complaints form that, coupled with a few other hassles...I can't talk them into hosting another.

I guess what I am getting at is that we ought to be careful with the "I'm not going back to Tulsa" talk. We might get our wish granted for us.

[Flexmoney]

Exactly... Rain happens, and should be expected. That means both shooters and the range should be able to handle it except in extreme cases. This wasn't epic rain by any means. Tulsa got less than an inch spread over the 3 days of the match. Some of the bays up front dried pretty well on Friday, but the big ones in the back didn't. That's what people are having issues with.

Yikes. That was all it took to cause that mess?

[Lexor40cal]

Exactly... Rain happens, and should be expected. That means both shooters and the range should be able to handle it except in extreme cases. This wasn't epic rain by any means. Tulsa got less than an inch spread over the 3 days of the match. Some of the bays up front dried pretty well on Friday, but the big ones in the back didn't. That's what people are having issues with.

Yikes. That was all it took to cause that mess?

All I know is, if I had spent all that money building the range there in Tulsa (USSA, approx $2M) I would expect it to handle an inch of rain and drain without causing such a mess (there was 2' of water in the back of some of the rear bays?). Either it was not designed correctly, or it was not built right?

I was informed by a fellow shooter that is in that earth moving business that used to live/work right there that the soil there is called "Gumbo" and the one thing you can't do is put sod on top of it, without the correct type of drainage underneath it.

If so, the soil "Gumbo" pushes up through the sod and sits on top of the sod, just like it did!!

Anyone there knows that stage 18 which was at the back in a big bay which had lots of sand under the sod, drained perfectly and had next to no mud under foot for both matches!! Sand, go figure, so why did they keep putting wood chippings down in the wet areas?

[Thomas Moore]

My memories of Tulsa. Were the girls at the range this year?

[Chuck Anderson]

2 feet of water in the back bays? That I did not see. A couple 3-4 inches maybe, but definitely not thigh high.

[RAZZ]

Just got back to Boulder, I left the match hotel about 3:30am... I was a little disappointed when the receptionist at the hotel showed me a cardboard box with about half a dozen wooden USPSA plaques and stage medals and asked me if I knew who they belonged to. It seems that the hotel staff were picking them up off the floor where they were presumably discarded by their recipients.

Now, I'll be the first to acknowledge that these wooden plaques are not the most attractive trophies (it may be time for a redesign) but I think it's a little disrespectful to just throw them away at the hotel or leave them lying around for the hotel staff to pick up and dispose of.

This is sad!!

This give a really negative impression of of us, the shooters!

Why do we shoot?? For a prize table??

I shoot for fun, the plaque or medal is just a bonus, but I would certainly wouldn't leave it behind, or discard it. I agree, that is just rude and disrespectful tot he organization and the rest of the shooters that would have loved to walk up to the stage and received that plaque, medal and the applause of the rest of the audience.

Do you just just for the Prize table??

Let's put numbers to paper

If you shot the two matches.....

Plane Ticket or Driving +/- $500

Hotel +/- $1000

Meals +/- $400

Ammo +/- $200

Match Fees +/- $500 (Depending on whether you earned your Slot or got it later)

Time spent practicing and attending the Event....Priceless!!

That adds up to +/- $2600

In order to break even, you would have to win that much.

So if you went to the nationals and won a $300 STI Fame, you lost money, and if went to the nationals just for the rize you were going to win, you need to go to business school.

I don't think even the match winner made enough money to offset the expenses.

Anyhow, most of the stuff won at the prize table will end up listed on the classifieds here or sold at Local matches anyway.

OK, rant over, I feel better now.

I hear what you guys are saying, but I'll be the first to admit that my plaque went in the garbage can at the hotel after the awards ceremony. Not because I didn't appreciate it, and not because I shot the match just for the prize table (which I didn't), but because I didn't shoot the match for a plaque. I shoot a big match to test my skills against better shooters, and my prize is seeing the final results--nothing more. I'd be perfectly happy to donate the piece of plastic to someone else, recycle it, re-use it--anything--but I have no use for it.

[shred]

I didn't save the NWS 3-day reports (I bet there's somebody on here with access to the data), but what they still have on the 3-day shows 0.31" rain during the day Sat (before ~1600 hrs) and 0.23" Fri/Sat night. An unofficial reporter closer to the range reported 0.56" Thurs and 0.16" Wed

[badchad]

In hindsight I thought shooting in the rain and mud was kind of fun. It’s not something I get much of in Phoenix. My gear held up pretty well, my cleats, though drenched and mud covered stayed surprisingly comfortable and I while I may not have ran as fast as usual, I never came close to slipping. And I learned a lot of tricks to make me better able to handle the weather next time.

The only thing I couldn’t stand were the Tulsa freeways. For the first two days I swear I got turned around every time I got in the car, but from day three on things were better.

[1911user]

I didn't save the NWS 3-day reports (I bet there's somebody on here with access to the data), but what they still have on the 3-day shows 0.31" rain during the day Sat (before ~1600 hrs) and 0.23" Fri/Sat night. An unofficial reporter closer to the range reported 0.56" Thurs and 0.16" Wed

http://www.mesonet.org/ (state weather data for Oklahoma)

select "rainfall" on the left side then select the number of days for a cumulative total on the right side.

It's a picture of Oklahoma weather for the last week.

Edited September 15, 2008 by 1911user

[ysued]

Hold on there.

I've seen shooters toss their (not first place) plaques away...AT THE RANGE. I don't think any shooter should do that (but it is their plaque to do with as they please, I guess). If you want to toss it, don't do it in front of all the people that didn't win the plaques and would have liked to.

But...I think we might be making assumptions here. I'm not sure how many plaques we are talking about? It might not have been a shooter at all if it was more than a couple, right?

Regardless, if a shooter threw out their plaque at in the privacy of their hotel room...them good on them for doing that away from eyesight.

There is no disrespect...nor negative impression...in that, unless somebody posts it on the internet for all to see.

Dude,

i had a Shooter give me his Plaque, ( I will not mention who, what match or what Place) right after he got it!!Just walked by me and handed it to me!! At the range, two seconds after getting it!! Nice eh??

[XRe]

Yikes. That was all it took to cause that mess?

Well.... more than that by a little bit.... According to Weather Underground (had to go there to get history), 9/10 .1", 9/11 .96", 9/13 1.71" (but much of that came after the match - NOAA says there was .3" between 3pm and 4pm, while the match was finishing).

But, yeah, it didn't take much to make a big mess. That's kind of the point....

Shooters are going to whine and bitch about everything - you could have a perfect match, and someone will bitch about something (thus my comment that most of the comments about not returning to Tulsa are likely bluster). Sure, heavy downpour during the match sucks, no doubt - but that wouldn't cause a reasonable person to not show up again. Unsafe, unmanageable conditions, though, quite possibly could...

The only bitch that I really have is that I took two foot faults on a stage where you literally could not feel the fault line because the mud had bunched up on either side of it to make level-ish ground. The ROs cleared the problem after they awarded my foot faults... That's half my fault - I should have checked the entire stage to insure that I could feel and see the lines completely, but its half their fault, too - the stage should not be allowed to be in that condition (it was Saturday, nice and sunny... not like it was raining at the time). But, nothing I could request any sort of RM-related help over, by the rules, so...

[AlamoShooter]

ON Saturday after noon ...I think it was stage 12 ... Yes stage 12 - at the poppers in the back, clear water was 'springing-up ' or running in from off the back berm. You had to walk/ wade through mud over the tops of your shoes to get to the poppers and I could see the water filling in to make the water deeper.

I have worked construction all my life Ran large shopping center size projects. and years ago I had to do real work work in -Real-Mud- .

This Range was not in Real Mud It was constructed at -and above industry standard for drainage and water control.

The sub surface was prepped to drain water as it soaked through.

At no point did any on sink in the mud so that it would be knee deep, the golf carts and four wheelers could drive on it with out sinking.

The mud was only on the top 4" and the sub Matt under the sod did its job.

The only cost effective way to avoid the problem mudding in the high traffic area is to put in an extra elevated matting at the shooting area.

Almost like a Pitchers mound is elevated

If I had to solve the problem I would use a 4" tall box form around the entire shooting area with a cheep plastic layer over the Sod, And thin I would fill in the "Boxed" Shooting area with a sand and dirt mix.

Edited September 15, 2008 by AlamoShooter

[XRe]

2 feet of water in the back bays? That I did not see. A couple 3-4 inches maybe, but definitely not thigh high.

I didn't see that either... I think the 2 foot number came from someone on the USSA staff mentioning that if the rain being predicted as worst case if Ike turned due north arrived, the back bays could/would be under that kind of water. Of course, that just further demonstrates the issue, but...

[XRe]

My memories of Tulsa. Were the girls at the range this year?

Nope.

[ysued]

I hear what you guys are saying, but I'll be the first to admit that my plaque went in the garbage can at the hotel after the awards ceremony. Not because I didn't appreciate it, and not because I shot the match just for the prize table (which I didn't), but because I didn't shoot the match for a plaque. I shoot a big match to test my skills against better shooters, and my prize is seeing the final results--nothing more. I'd be perfectly happy to donate the piece of plastic to someone else, recycle it, re-use it--anything--but I have no use for it.

I hear your point, it's a good one, but you shot at the Nationals and you placed!!

It know the plaques were not as good looking as the Stone/Slate/Granite plaques from 98, but they were form the nationals!!

[Flexmoney]

The only bitch that I really have is that I took two foot faults on a stage where you literally could not feel the fault line because the mud had bunched up on either side of it to make level-ish ground. The ROs cleared the problem after they awarded my foot faults... That's half my fault - I should have checked the entire stage to insure that I could feel and see the lines completely, but its half their fault, too - the stage should not be allowed to be in that condition (it was Saturday, nice and sunny... not like it was raining at the time). But, nothing I could request any sort of RM-related help over, by the rules, so...

Sure you could have, and you would have been correct to do so.

[carinab]

Exactly... Rain happens, and should be expected. That means both shooters and the range should be able to handle it except in extreme cases. This wasn't epic rain by any means. Tulsa got less than an inch spread over the 3 days of the match. Some of the bays up front dried pretty well on Friday, but the big ones in the back didn't. That's what people are having issues with.

Yikes. That was all it took to cause that mess?

Uh...no....My inlaws live in owasso not far from the range, less than 5 miles. Their rain gauge in the back yard had five inches of water in it when I looked Saturday morning. The range does have a design to drain water off. It travels into a creek not far away. However, there are these little critters known as beavers who regularly damn up some of the water way so that even in less rain, the locals get flooded. That happened to my father inlaw when he worked at the verizon building just up the road before the range was built. Maybe they got busy again!

There are a myriad of reasons why it all happened the way it did. I'm sure the range owner and match staff will do everything they can to take precautions and find solutions. Tulsa is a nice place and I hope to go back.

Edited September 15, 2008 by carinab

[Jake Di Vita]

I find most people who's goal is to WIN don't keep or display plaques where they lost. (Losing = not 1st place). I do it in very select occasions. For example, I have a plaque next to my door from the match I lost by about .1 match points - to remind me that every point counts. I don't keep the majority and I know quite a lot of shooters who feel the same way.

Other than that, frankly, it's no ones business what a competitor does with the plaque they were given. I don't see how it's disrespectful at all - it isn't insulting the match, staff, or competition. It is solely based as a representation of your performance. I bet 99% of us throw the stuff away we get in the sponsor bag when we register for the match too, but I don't see anyone screaming "foul" over that. By that logic, isn't that disrespecting our match sponsors?