smokshwn Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Oh, Craig.... even with that whole list of infirmities you stated, given your line of work, I was going to be seriously worried if you couldn't get through that door, man... Kind of ironic, on days when I wear my little red helmet I use my foot.....when its dark out and I have on my little black balaclava I use the ram... I was seriously considering using my foot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 I quit using my foot when my knee started hurting for a month after each door kicked in. But I don't have super Fireman power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 In that match there wasn't a single low port or scenario that favored being short. BS, you freakin' whiner Perhaps you forgot about Stage 10.... Hmmm....I've got stage 10 on video. No ports, but you did have to go under a couple of crossbars, but if I recall correctly, you couldn't knock them loose for a penalty and they were low enough that everyone had to duck somewhat. Okay, if I have to duck four inches and a tall guy has to duck 10 inches, how big of a deal is that? I'm just not getting the sense that it's the same as someone having to pick up something that's 30-40% of their body weight or accept two procedurals. Even if you count stage 10 as in the "short guy favored" box, the final score would have been tall guy friendly 5 to short guy friendly 1, or something along those lines. I did mention that it didn't bother me, and I wasn't complaining/whining, but I might start now that you made me think about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Hmmm....I've got stage 10 on video. No ports, but you did have to go under a couple of crossbars, but if I recall correctly, you couldn't knock them loose for a penalty and they were low enough that everyone had to duck somewhat. The shorter you were, the less likely you were to be brained by the last crossbar... and the easier it was to traverse under each one and come up shooting... The tall guys had to significantly contort to get under that last bar.... Okay, if I have to duck four inches and a tall guy has to duck 10 inches, how big of a deal is that? I'm just not getting the sense that it's the same as someone having to pick up something that's 30-40% of their body weight or accept two procedurals. Even if you count stage 10 as in the "short guy favored" box, the final score would have been tall guy friendly 5 to short guy friendly 1, or something along those lines. You made an absolute statement I was just pointing out that you forgot one... Actually, in my experience, the balance usually works out towards the short guys, so if one match favors the tall guys, I don't think it matters all that much in the grand scheme of things... I'm stuck in that most excellent middle ground where I'm too short to benefit for "tall guy stages" and too tall to benefit for "short guy stages".... but I'm usually just right for most, so... BTW - if you look at most of the top shooters, they're pretty middle of the road, but tend toward the shorter to middle end of things... so you're in good company being short... I did mention that it didn't bother me, and I wasn't complaining/whining, but I might start now that you made me think about it Might as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 (edited) I've never seen the height thing be that big an issue at matches. If you look at the winners of Nationals or World Shoots the height of the shooter varies considerably. Rob Leatham is over 6 foot, I think Max is too, Athena is petite and Gabrielle (also a WS winner) is much taller. In other words 'talent and skill knows no limits'. There is little doubt that the sport of practical shooting has evolved considerably over the past few years. Stages are becoming bigger and the ability to move fast and efficiently is starting to open significant gaps between the physically fit and those that are less so. Obviously movement is a big part of what makes our sport unique, and I for one would not want to see that changed. But everything has to be in moderation, for every stage that requires significant movement there should be one that has minimal movement (where the emphasis is on speed/accuracy of shooting). The use of props is also a key part of our sport. But I think that the props should be reasonable, they should (as much as possible) provide an equal challenge for the shooters and they should be safe. If someone had dropped this 45lb weight on their foot they would need hospital treatment and their match would be over. No sport is completely without risk; But we should do all we can within our principles to limit the risk. Edited July 17, 2008 by BritinUSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKSNIPER Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 "No sport is completely without risk; But we should do all we can within our principles to limit the risk." Agree 100% .....Well said Brit. JK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitefish Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Whitefish stated a rumor that I'd heard, that a shooter was allowed to test the door, whereas the rest of the match was prevented from doing so. Fact in this case, not rumor, as I was on the same squad as the shooter that was "invited" to test the door before the match by the personnel on the stage. I say fact with a 100% certainty, as the results of the "test" were personally stated to me by said shooter - three tries and no go. I am fairly certain the RM and Match Director did not know of this prior test session because when I asked the MD on Saturday, he stated to me in no uncertain terms that such was not the case, that absolutely no one was allowed to do so. I did not argue the point with him except to say "I don't believe that is the case." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 (edited) Fact in this case, not rumor, as I was on the same squad as the shooter that was "invited" to test the door before the match by the personnel on the stage. I say fact with a 100% certainty, as the results of the "test" were personally stated to me by said shooter - three tries and no go. I am fairly certain the RM and Match Director did not know of this prior test session because when I asked the MD on Saturday, he stated to me in no uncertain terms that such was not the case, that absolutely no one was allowed to do so. I did not argue the point with him except to say "I don't believe that is the case." They didn't know therefore it didn't happen. Unless someone fessed up on it and then the stage would have to be tossed. If the guy did it on his own it would be 4.5.1 but since he was "invited" I don't see where you can ding the shooter. What is left, but ignoring or tossing the stage? What rule would you apply? Edited July 17, 2008 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Didn't happen on my watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Whitefish stated a rumor that I'd heard, that a shooter was allowed to test the door, whereas the rest of the match was prevented from doing so. Fact in this case, not rumor, as I was on the same squad as the shooter that was "invited" to test the door before the match by the personnel on the stage. I say fact with a 100% certainty, as the results of the "test" were personally stated to me by said shooter - three tries and no go. I am fairly certain the RM and Match Director did not know of this prior test session because when I asked the MD on Saturday, he stated to me in no uncertain terms that such was not the case, that absolutely no one was allowed to do so. I did not argue the point with him except to say "I don't believe that is the case." By your description it sounds as though you were not present or did not witness the "testing" and only heard the story told by someone. Is this correct? If that is the case I would be very careful making the accusation that the RO's broke the rules based on hearsay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Drop that, folks. It's not the point of this discussion. We aren't going there on this forum. - Admin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 19, 2008 Share Posted July 19, 2008 Well, the other day I did get to fiddle with a ram a little, but the MP5-10 and the taxpayer's ammo ("hey my rebate is finally here!") was much more interesting. :D The ram I played with (I didn't get the weight and didn't try it on a door) was a little too heavy to be used well as a prop at a major match (IMO the national champion should not be determined by washer-throwing or door-breaching or ATM-typing or ammo-can-carrying ability-- leave the 'fun' stuff at the more local level where it will be appreciated more)-- but the pre-defined alternative and roughly equivalent penalty is a very good thing. Too often you see "one penalty per shot fired for not having the baby carriage in the bunker (fish in the barrel, bun in the oven, catcher in the rye, ... )". That kind of thing really blows since this is not the US Practical Baby-Saving (or fish-barreling or oven-bunning or catcher-enrying) Association and a per-shot penalty is way overboard. One thing I do like about the IDPA rules is "the same for everybody is not a justification for poor course design" (again, I make no judgement about the A1 stage since I wasn't there) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKSNIPER Posted July 19, 2008 Share Posted July 19, 2008 Instead of a penalty for not using the heavy ram alternatives could be to: 1. Use a much lighter ram and easier pins to break in the target door. 2. If someone elects to not ram the door take the average time it takes for shooters to ram the door and add that amount of time onto the end of their run. This way its fair for everyone who rammed and those that elected to not ram the door. 3. Make the non-rammers go a different route through the course which will take the extra amount of time you think is average for rammers to go through the door. My sincere appreciation to everyone that works to figure out and lay out the stages for a match. Even those I feel could have been designed different/better. Its easy to monday morning QB the guy that said "Hey I know lets use a RAM for a prop!" but he took his own time and energy to set up a course of fire for the betterment of those that shot the match. Kudos to him for trying. JK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaunH Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 (edited) The prop was fine. Chuck, you did a great job and this stage was my favorite. I hate to see it not used or considered in the future because some people are complaining, even people that weren't there. (Is Phil Gramm right?) I've heard several people blame this stage for their inability to hit their targets too. There was a gentleman at Area (never seen him before) who was complaining about not being able to open the door on the first strike. This flustered him so badly, it caused him to miss a target. Please! I can understand a person being flustered, causing their planned engagement of the course of fire to go out the window, but a miss? The problem was his inability to use his front sight and place his shots, not because he hit the door without the proper amount of force to break the pin. If the door was the reason, he would have missed most of the targets he engaged. Edited July 20, 2008 by ShaunH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 Chuck, you just keep on building the stages. I'll shoot them if I'm there. Dropping the prop on your foot.... Hmmm, if someone gave me a 2 lb hammer and I dropped it on my foot that would be my fault. If someone gave me a 40 lb ram and I dropped it on my foot, that would also be my fault. People give me multiple options to problems that I don't like any of the options all the time. The only things I can do is control is my mental attitude, embrace the suck, and get on with it. That's all I can see here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill J Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 The prop was fine. Chuck, you did a great job and this stage was my favorite. I hate to see it not used or considered in the future because some people are complaining, even people that weren't there. (Is Phil Gramm right?)I've heard several people blame this stage for their inability to hit their targets too. There was a gentleman at Area (never seen him before) who was complaining about not being able to open the door on the first strike. This flustered him so badly, it caused him to miss a target. Please! I can understand a person being flustered, causing their planned engagement of the course of fire to go out the window, but a miss? The problem was his inability to use his front sight and place his shots, not because he hit the door without the proper amount of force to break the pin. If the door was the reason, he would have missed most of the targets he engaged. Chuck, you just keep on building the stages. I'll shoot them if I'm there. Dropping the prop on your foot.... Hmmm, if someone gave me a 2 lb hammer and I dropped it on my foot that would be my fault. If someone gave me a 40 lb ram and I dropped it on my foot, that would also be my fault. People give me multiple options to problems that I don't like any of the options all the time. The only things I can do is control is my mental attitude, embrace the suck, and get on with it. That's all I can see here... +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaunH Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 (edited) Sure, as long as we also make shooting ports that handicap me because I am over 6 foot illegal, while were at it lets make a field course that favors a fast runner over a slow runner illegal, why stop there, A GM can draw faster than me so lets let everyone start with the gun allready pointed at the target. I my usual sarcastic tone what I am getting at is USPSA is a sport that has physical aspects. I bet the same match that handicapped your 5'1 wife had another stage with a port that favored her because of her height. There will always be stages that favor one physical ability or feature over others that's part of the game. +1 for the point and the sarcasm Edited July 20, 2008 by ShaunH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 We appear to be quite polarized on this. One point of view is that there are no bad stages. Shoot whatever is there, and like it. The other view is that there are things you should not do, in a stage. If you don't learn from your mistakes, we will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
35WLN Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 I am a new shooter and I have to say this was the best stage of all. It added a different level of excitement and it is not something you can practice at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 It is Practical shooting. We need to hold on to what Practicalness is left. The principals of 1.1 are pretty general in nature and leave a lot of discretion up to the stage designers and match directors. I think an occasional stage like this is good but wouldn't want to see a whole match with stages that are "prop heavy" in the physical or literal sense. This doesn't sound as if it was unsafe by nature. Yeah I'm sure if you dropped it on your foot it would have hurt. I would also recommend not slamming the car door on your hand. I was flying this past weekend and saw something that made me think of this thread. I guess some folks should not sit in exit rows from now on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 I was flying this past weekend and saw something that made me think of this thread. I guess some folks should not sit in exit rows from now on. That's the whole point with the sign and the placard in the exit row seats...and some folks are NOT ALLOWED to sit in the exit row. You are also asked by the stewardess if you are able and willing to perform the tasks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Egan Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 (edited) Dropping the prop on your foot.... Hmmm, if someone gave me a 2 lb hammer and I dropped it on my foot that would be my fault. If someone gave me a 40 lb ram and I dropped it on my foot, that would also be my fault. You dropping a 40lb ram on your foot is comedy: Me dropping a 2lb hammer on my foot is tragedy! Great stage, nuf said. Edited July 23, 2008 by Tim Egan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Juniors under the age of 15 or 16 and the 'frail' (aka the 77-year old grandma) aren't allowed in exit rows. At least in that one you get to chuck the door outside-- I always laugh at the ones that have you setting it neatly across the seats like you're the only one on the plane that wants to get out that door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 (edited) I always laugh at the ones that have you setting it neatly across the seats like you're the only one on the plane that wants to get out that door. <drift> I always laugh when they ask if I'm "willing to help in the event of an emergency". Hmmm... let's see. If there's an emergency and we all need to get out of the plane ASAP, am I "willing" to be the first one out? Yeah, okay, I suppose so. </drift> Bruce ("follow me!") Edited July 24, 2008 by bgary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I sense a stage design for A1 2009!!! At the start, open the emergency exit door, retrieve unloaded handgun and ammo from overhead baggage compartment and engage the evil goblin beasties that trashed the engines as they become available. Anyone got a spare airplane fuselage complete with exit row seats and door we can borrow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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