Did I get taken

[jlopez]

I trying to figure out if I was taken advantage on this situation. I have a Norinco 1911 which I had purchased approximately 10 years ago and had smith student do a build. I now have about 20,000 rounds through it and started to develop a problem. I first broke the slide stop(release) and replaced it my self with a Wilson combat extended release. No smith needed dropped right in. Well when I was shooting an IDPA match I was having some failure to ejects and every one thought just maybe it was the extractor. Took the gun apart and found out I had broken a barrel link (bottom half that fits through the slide stop). Took it to a smith and replaced the barrel link and pin. After practicing my son was cleaning the pistol I noticed this small part on my mat. I took the gun apart again and found that the barrel link pin had broken. I tried going back to the smith that replaced this part but since it was 4th of July weekend he was closed. My son was to shoot his first USPSA match that Sunday so searching for another smith I remember one of our USPSA shooters was also a smith and he was convenient on my way to work and he stated via phone he could fix the problem.

Up front I am very happy with the work did. He got me out of a jam even though I could have borrowed another set up from a friend however, I knew my son would be more comfortable shooting the gun he practiced with (Mindset). His service was great and he explained very well why the pin had broken and showed me how it was improperly fit. I also told him that the other smith had recommended that I would need to replace the barrel eventually due to the lower lugs. The new smith said no the barrel should not need to be replaced but proper fitting of the barrel link would take care of it. I asked him to fit the barrel link for the proper lock up so I would not have the same problem. An 1hr 20 mins after leaving my pistol at the shop he leaves me a message saying my gun is ready and he will deliver it to the match and the total is $176.89.

I do not want to post the copy of the invoice because it has his info but It will retype.

Work to be done :

Barrel link and lock up

Part cost Labor

Barrel bushing $30 $30

Link Pin $20

Clean and inspect $50

Test fire $10

Barrel link (+6) $15 $20

Tax $1.89

Total $176.89

I know it is my fault for not asking pricing up front but when I had the last barrel link and pin (improperly) installed it cost me $25. I also expected a reasonable charge for him rushing it. I am trying to figure out why he would charge 3 to 4 times the price for the parts as you can buy them from Midway or Brownell's even auto shops do not get that ridiculous. I know the gun was not perfectly clean but it is standard for the a clean and inspect charge. He also fit a new barrel bushing which I do not believe I asked for but maybe he considered as part of the lock up. When he delivered the pistol he did not return any of the old parts, did not bring a copy of the invoice but when I asked he said he would e-mail it to me. Then after i wrote the check he said by the way in my "professional opinion" you will want to replace that barrel. Well I would not have had the work done if i needed to replace the barrel because I will need to go through all that again.

[RePete]

If the gun is running properly without problems, what's the problem? He did it on the 4th of July weekend (holiday). Do you think that it wasn't worth $177? I think that you got off light. At least he had the parts in stock.

As for the barrel, maybe the botton lugs are damage from the 'drop in Wilson slide release'?

[John Dunn]

I'd pay it, not say a thing, and never use that guy again.

[bp78]

If I read it correctly, you paid $45 in parts (Bushing & link) and $120 in labor and essentially $10 ammo.

$120/hr is higher than our local smith who was charging around $50/hr the last time I used him.

Rates should vary based on the skill of the smith, as a weekend rush job I'd expect to pay more. At least he took the time to give an education in what was happening but I'd definitely get a quote before ever using him again. As they say, "You can have fast, cheap, good. Pick two."

Edited July 8, 2008 by bp78

[Johann the Horrible]

If the barrel was never properly fitted to the slide you would have had to replace slide-stops, barrel links and link pins over and over until you ruined the barrel and slide. I think you not only paid for the time of the gunsmith you also paid for his experience. If you did get ripped of it was by the guy that did the original work on the gun. He should have fitted the barrel correctly to the slide to start of with. $177 is a lot of money but it was after hours and the gun did get delivered. Good service but not cheap.

[HSMITH]

You won't know until you put another 20K rounds through it if you got taken or not. If he really fixed all the problems on the Norc you got a fair deal IMO, if it doesn't last but a couple thousand rounds you got hosed.

I am leaning toward the gun being fixed, but it is just a feeling based on very limited information. The vertical impact surface on the Norc guns are typically WAY long, the fact that he put a #6 link in it tells me that he knows that and has addressed it to some extent at least. You have been breaking slide stops and links and link pins because the barrel was stopping on them when it linked down, and not on the VIS. NOTHING you can buy will stand up to that until the barrel is stopped by the VIS.

I won't discuss part mark up or total cost further, if you were worried about it you should have asked before you left the gun IMO.

[SA Friday]

I remember one of our USPSA shooters was also a smith and he was convenient on my way to work and he stated via phone he could fix the problem.

Sounds to me he has a lot to lose by screwing you. Most USPSA gunsmiths receive work through word of mouth and reputation. That's a lot to risk on a fellow shooter's Norinco on 4 Jul by doing it wrong or overcharging. It's too easy to verify his work and prices, and if he did you wrong that would hurt his future business. I just don't see reward in this scenario for the gunsmith to do the work wrong or overcharge you.

Secondly, $175 for that repair sounds about right. As HSMITH said, you won't know if he just did a quick-fix for about another 2,000 rounds. I also agree with HSMITH that he probably didn't.

[BritinUSA]

Just for comparison; If you take a car into your dealer for a factory service, they will charge close to $100 per hour just for labor.

[CSEMARTIN]

The new smith said no the barrel should not need to be replaced but proper fitting of the barrel link would take care of it.

Then after i wrote the check he said by the way in my "professional opinion" you will want to replace that barrel.

That's the part of the story that would have pissed me off!!

Edited July 8, 2008 by CSEMARTIN

[Rob Boudrie]

Just for comparison; If you take a car into your dealer for a factory service, they will charge close to $100 per hour just for labor.

And they'll use a flat rate manual so you can get three hours worth of billable work done in two hours of actual time, and pay a full retail markup on all parts which, with a car, can easily boost the effective hourly rate up to a couple of hundred an hour.

Remember, the gunsmith's charge includes the time spent talking to you, as well as overhead including the time he isn't doing billable work. Just try to imagine paying overhead, making a living, and paying your own benefits and the $$ probably won't be enough to make you want to go to gunsmith school.

[HighVelocity]

emergency repair on a holiday weekend and delivered to you at the match... Well, if the gun works properly now, in my opinion, it was worth every penny and you were lucky to have access to a gunsmith and get it fixed on zero notice. It also sounds like the smith did a good job of explaining exactly what he did and why.

My .02

[Jeff686]

I had the exact same problem on the exact same gun!! Wow, what a coincidence.

I broke the link after several years. Had my local (very good reputation) gun smith install a new link. I don't remember the cost. A month later it broke again. I took it back, and he said "Wow, I really screwed up on this!"

He measured it about 10 times, scratched his head, cussed at himself a couple of times, then ordered some special size links. I didn't know they came in different sizes.

A week later he returned the gun, no additional charge.

Oh, by the way, I love my Norinco! $450 used, and I shot it as-is for several years. Tripp trigger job and chrome, and it lasted for several more years. New link, and it's been going strong since. It even looks good with the matte and brushed chrome. Made B class with it last year.

The only thing I'm disappointed about is the front sight. I wish I had the slide dove-tailed before the chrome job.

[larry cazes]

emergency repair on a holiday weekend and delivered to you at the match... Well, if the gun works properly now, in my opinion, it was worth every penny and you were lucky to have access to a gunsmith and get it fixed on zero notice. It also sounds like the smith did a good job of explaining exactly what he did and why.

My .02

Gotta agree. Sounds pretty reasonable to me for the emergency service you received.

[Kingman]

if the gun runs, take it for that. If it breaks again then you got a hose job. If it lasts sounds good.

I would expect well over $100 in labor to rush a gun to someone and have it back in a couple days. Figure about double their normal rate for true rush jobs.

[warpspeed]

I'm in agreement with most of teh above - if it goes 2,000 + rounds and still loks up solid and does not break the link, then you are in pretty good shape.

The barrel comment would have bothered me too though.

[JKSNIPER]

Others have said it already dude but you got off easy.

Holiday weekend rush job and you failed to ask what the estimated cost would be up front.

How much is YOUR time worth to do your job on a holiday weekend last minute rush job?

I would say thank you Mr Gunsmith and in the future when hes looking over you latest problem ASK him what do you think it will cost me to get this fixed?

Just my .02

JK

[SharonAnne9x23]

my A/C failed on the 4th of July. tech was here less than an hour. $276.00. A/C works. did I get my monies worth? I think so. so should you.

Blessed Be

SharonAnne

[smokshwn]

One point that hasn't been brought up is that, yes we can all look in brownell's and see the parts prices, however what you paid for was knowledge and skill you don't have that was earned over years of experience. I think people tend to forget that much of what we pay for from a gunsmith is not only the parts and their actual time with our gun in their hand, but also the years of training/practice/learning to be able to accurately diagnose a problem and apply the correct solution in a timely manner. IMHO (assuming the fix is functional) you got plenty of service for your money.

[ChrisStock]

One point that hasn't been brought up is that, yes we can all look in brownell's and see the parts prices, however what you paid for was knowledge and skill you don't have that was earned over years of experience. y.

Yep... I run in to the same thing in my industry. Folks don't realize that they are paying for 20+ years of experience in my career field, and what I have learned along the way ensures that repairs are fast and accurate.

For the OP, I think you did ok with what you were charged. I have a local smith that I ask up front for a written estimate after getting tagged pretty hard once. That way there's no hurt feelings for anyone. If it runs, run it. If not, well...that's another can of worms.

[jlopez]

Thank you everyone. I appreciate and respect your replies. As I stated in the original post I take responsibility for not asking up front. If he would have stated the clean and inspect as a rush fee it would not have bothered me. The statement about replacing the barrel only bothered me because he installed a new Barrel bushing which will probably need to be replaced with the purchase of a new barrel and he said this after I paid him.

Just to restate I feel his work was very good and his service was excellent. My son had a great time at the match and the gun ran fine. I took it out on Tuesday for accuracy test and it shoots great. It now has about 350 rounds on his repair. I will put another 200 to 300 rounds on Thursday with a practice session.

If I need his services again I will definitely ask up front his prices. Now I just need to learn how to shoot.

[RePete]

Thank you everyone. I appreciate and respect your replies. As I stated in the original post I take responsibility for not asking up front. If he would have stated the clean and inspect as a rush fee it would not have bothered me. The statement about replacing the barrel only bothered me because he installed a new Barrel bushing which will probably need to be replaced with the purchase of a new barrel and he said this after I paid him.

Just to restate I feel his work was very good and his service was excellent. My son had a great time at the match and the gun ran fine. I took it out on Tuesday for accuracy test and it shoots great. It now has about 350 rounds on his repair. I will put another 200 to 300 rounds on Thursday with a practice session.

If I need his services again I will definitely ask up front his prices. Now I just need to learn how to shoot.

That alone makes it worth the money.

[JThompson]

Thank you everyone. I appreciate and respect your replies. As I stated in the original post I take responsibility for not asking up front. If he would have stated the clean and inspect as a rush fee it would not have bothered me. The statement about replacing the barrel only bothered me because he installed a new Barrel bushing which will probably need to be replaced with the purchase of a new barrel and he said this after I paid him.

Just to restate I feel his work was very good and his service was excellent. My son had a great time at the match and the gun ran fine. I took it out on Tuesday for accuracy test and it shoots great. It now has about 350 rounds on his repair. I will put another 200 to 300 rounds on Thursday with a practice session.

If I need his services again I will definitely ask up front his prices. Now I just need to learn how to shoot.

You are anticipating recoil there bud... "pushing the gun at the moment you break the shot." The sight could be off, but I bet it's a push. Also, all those should be in the same hole at 15.

As to the cost... you got off cheap.

Edited July 9, 2008 by JThompson

[AlamoShooter]

Thank you everyone. I appreciate and respect your replies. As I stated in the original post I take responsibility for not asking up front. If he would have stated the clean and inspect as a rush fee it would not have bothered me. The statement about replacing the barrel only bothered me because he installed a new Barrel bushing which will probably need to be replaced with the purchase of a new barrel and he said this after I paid him.

Just to restate I feel his work was very good and his service was excellent. My son had a great time at the match and the gun ran fine. I took it out on Tuesday for accuracy test and it shoots great. It now has about 350 rounds on his repair. I will put another 200 to 300 rounds on Thursday with a practice session.

If I need his services again I will definitely ask up front his prices. Now I just need to learn how to shoot.

The cleaning Fee /inspection and the Flip Flop on the Barrel Replacement / After he got the gun cleaned up and inspected so that if something Else was going to break ..=He could tell you about it ,,,Next the test Fire All that combined gave him some small points that lead him to flip flop on the Barrel.

Just a guess on my part.

[pjb45]

Some of you may know the name Hoag. He is a pioneer in the SoCal area along with Chapman and a few others. I lost my link pin when I was cleaning my gun at an outdoor range. I was getting ready for SSNationals two years ago. Needless to say I was a bit stressed.

Jim fixed my problem. He said to send him five bucks in the mail. I only had $100 dollar bills with me.

Personally, I thought it was a bit much for a $50 clean and inspection.

Actually, now that I have written this reply, I know some big named gunsmiths that would install and fit a new barrel for less.

Maybe the holiday justifies the high price, but it sure seems unreasonable to me.

[Flexmoney]

The clean and inspect fee is standard with some smiths, I believe.

It's nice that it includes the customer consultation and the troubleshooting of the problem.