Sweeping your hand...through a bag

[driver8M3]

One of the stages at the VA/MD match had an interesting start position: unloaded gun and all ammo inside a small, zippered, semi-rigid tool bag. in order to fully unzip the bag your hand had to go in front of the muzzle (the zipper went down the front of the bag, so your hand would go all the way to the table while opening the zipper).

now, i realize this isn't any more unsafe than sweeping your leg with your holstered gun, but what is the correct ruling on sweeping youself through the bag?

[JThompson]

One of the stages at the VA/MD match had an interesting start position: unloaded gun and all ammo inside a small, zippered, semi-rigid tool bag. in order to fully unzip the bag your hand had to go in front of the muzzle (the zipper went down the front of the bag, so your hand would go all the way to the table while opening the zipper).

now, i realize this isn't any more unsafe than sweeping your leg with your holstered gun, but what is the correct ruling on sweeping youself through the bag?

Interesting.... I would think that this would be ruled as an unsafe start position and disallowed?

~Tapping foot waiting for the big dogs~

Edited June 10, 2008 by JThompson

[lynn jones]

they probably concidered the bag the holster, therefore, no sweeping.

lynn

[Alan Meek]

I pointed the muzzle of my gun about 45 degrees to the left so I would not sweep myself

[George Jones]

This scenario brings up two separate issues......

One - the rulebook which says (Rule 10.5.5) that pointing the muzzle at your body during the course of fire is a DQ. Since the bag was zipped and unzipped after the "Make Ready" command, the rule seems to apply. The rule says nothing about loaded or unloaded. Although a gun is essentially considered inert (whether loaded or not) when in a holster, the bag presents a somewhat different situation. The gun is "exposed" (you have access to the trigger) during the act of zipping and later unzipping the bag (crossing in front of the muzzle).

Two - the "common sense" issue. Many of our start procedures are simply different ways to distract the shooter. This one is no different, but I would suggest that there are many other ways to distract a competitor without opening this kind of potentially problematic rules issue. I would stay away from this one.

[Joe4d]

I pointed the muzzle of my gun about 45 degrees to the left so I would not sweep myself

Me too, wasnt very hard to set the gun in the bag and or turn the bag so you wouldnt sweep your self, You also didnt have to open both zippers, even if gun was straight the zippers were 6 inches above the gun so you could grab both zippers and un zip without ever crossing the muzzle, I should have got the brand of the bag cause that was a heck of a testament to zipper strength that it held up the hole match, That was the one stage I actually did well on course I fell out with heat stroke right after, I puked drank a ton of water and struggled through the rest of the match in slow motion.

[Kingman]

you aren't the only one that left from heat stroke.

With an open gun you almost were given no choice but to put your hand in front of the muzzle.

[slflr]

If I present myself at a course of fire with my gun in my range bag, and am given the MR, I open my bag and we find the gun is pointed up range in the range bag, will you DQ me for breaking the 180?

[Nik Habicht]

If I present myself at a course of fire with my gun in my range bag, and am given the MR, I open my bag and we find the gun is pointed up range in the range bag, will you DQ me for breaking the 180?

After reading up on the relevant rules, it looks like I'd have to inform you of a rules infraction requiring your disqualification from the match....

10.5.2, 8.3.1

Safety areas are available --- if you choose not to use them, it is incumbent on you to have a system in place that will allow you not to violate 10.5.2 while unbagging on the line.....

That said, I've never seen it happen.....

[scirocco38s]

I shot this match also and started on that stage. The gun is unloaded at the start, and is specified that it is to be unloaded, so I would deem it safe although I found the bag to be a pita.

This match was overall a good match. The weather sucked though as it was over 100 degrees for the entire match and humidity was very high also. Overall a very bad weekend to shoot.

[slflr]

If I present myself at a course of fire with my gun in my range bag, and am given the MR, I open my bag and we find the gun is pointed up range in the range bag, will you DQ me for breaking the 180?

After reading up on the relevant rules, it looks like I'd have to inform you of a rules infraction requiring your disqualification from the match....

10.5.2, 8.3.1

Safety areas are available --- if you choose not to use them, it is incumbent on you to have a system in place that will allow you not to violate 10.5.2 while unbagging on the line.....

That said, I've never seen it happen.....

Consider the start position "gun loaded, seated in a chair, hands on knees". Have I swept myself by placing my strong hand in front of the loaded, holstered firearm? Or, "standing, facing down range, hands relaxed at sides". Have I swept myself by allowing my fingers to dangle in front of the muzzle?

[Scout454]

The bag came from Lowe's. They make it in two sizes and that one has been in the back of the last two trucks I've had, loaded with match setup tools for at least 4 years.

The zipper still works.

[AikiDale]

RULE 2

NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY

Edited June 11, 2008 by AikiDale

[racerba]

looking at the preface:

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

It would imply that you are handling the gun (i.e. - gun in your hand). While the pistol is in the bag, you are not handling the gun. You are accessing it by unzippering the bag. I would not consider this sweeping.

Similar to SLFLR's example - if I come to the line with a pistol in the bag/rug. At some point, the muzzle is sweeping somebody or some part of a body from inside the bag/rug. Is this a DQ? I think not. If it is, then everybody is DQed even before a match starts.

Edited June 11, 2008 by racerba

[dajarrel]

I feel pretty confident in saying that most everyone that uses a gun bag has opened it at the safety table only to have their gun pointing at their belly button.

That being said, in my opinion, it would be pretty nit picky to try to DQ someone for sweeping themselves unbagging a gun.

FWIW

dj

[slflr]

I feel pretty confident in saying that most everyone that uses a gun bag has opened it at the safety table only to have their gun pointing at their belly button.

That being said, in my opinion, it would be pretty nit picky to try to DQ someone for sweeping themselves unbagging a gun.

FWIW

dj

dajarrel,

Thank you for your "common sense" reply. I looked hard at this stage and found the start position to be no less safe than the start from a chair and not in anyway a violation of the rule book. When I shot the stage, I found it to be a very effective and imaginative way to "distract the shooter". I hope that if the powers that be feel there is a real issue here with DQ'ing people for this starting position, they will make it public before their is a rash of DQ's of people for sweeping their finger tips "facing down range hands relaxed at sides".

Bob

[uscbigdawg]

Point the gun in another direction.

Rich

[Fireant]

Shoot there was plenty of room in the bag to angle your gun. I shoot a full sized open gun with a big ole comp on the end and had plenty of room. That was my favorite stage of the match, tied for fastest open time, but dropped too many points.

[Boris Zaretsky]

looking at the preface:

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

It would imply that you are handling the gun (i.e. - gun in your hand). While the pistol is in the bag, you are not handling the gun. You are accessing it by unzippering the bag. I would not consider this sweeping.

Similar to SLFLR's example - if I come to the line with a pistol in the bag/rug. At some point, the muzzle is sweeping somebody or some part of a body from inside the bag/rug. Is this a DQ? I think not. If it is, then everybody is DQed even before a match starts.

Well said. You are not handling the gun until you touch it. Therefore this is not sweeping and not a DQ.

I always put the point about sweeping into my safety instructions for new shooters. I see many sweep themselves when fixing the holster with one hand while holstering the gun with another. I always advise to move the gun around that hand to avoid sweeping. Some people remember it. Some need warning a few times.

[Gary Stevens]

You are not "handling" your firearm when you undo your belt with your gun in the holster, and drop it in the gun bag while outside the safety area. However, such actions is considered unsafe gun handling.

Back to you.

[JThompson]

You are not "handling" your firearm when you undo your belt with your gun in the holster, and drop it in the gun bag while outside the safety area. However, such actions is considered unsafe gun handling.

Back to you.

Intermission

Edited June 12, 2008 by JThompson

[Boris Zaretsky]

You are not "handling" your firearm when you undo your belt with your gun in the holster,

Yes, you are. You take off the belt with the gun. The gun is swinging all over the place and this will cause a DQ as we previously discussed in the other thread. You know it very well.

In the case discussed here the gun is stationary, does not move up until a shooter touches it. You could put a rock instead of a gun or a hear comb. All the same. So, here I see no case of sweeping at all.

[driver8M3]

You are not "handling" your firearm when you undo your belt with your gun in the holster,

Yes, you are. You take off the belt with the gun. The gun is swinging all over the place and this will cause a DQ as we previously discussed in the other thread. You know it very well.

In the case discussed here the gun is stationary, does not move up until a shooter touches it. You could put a rock instead of a gun or a hear comb. All the same. So, here I see no case of sweeping at all.

i'm not sure "handling" the gun has anything to do with this call. pretend the bag isnt there, it's just gun on table (loaded or unloaded, whatever you want). if i stick my left hand in front of the muzzle...while my right hand is still flat on the table (in other words, not touching or handling the gun), what are you going to call? the sweeping rule generally means the gun is in your hand. but that's not the only application. you don't have to be holding or handling your gun to sweep yourself into a DQ.

[Gary Stevens]

Hmmm. In post 19 you are not handling a gun until you are touching it, and in post 22 you are handling the gun even when it is in the holster hanging over your shoulder.

Oh well.

[AikiDale]

It has become obvious to me after reading this thread it is inherently dangerous for a gun to be in either a bag or a holster, in the safety area or on the shooting line. Apparently the only safe way to handle a gun is to load it and run around shooting it whilst making sure not to break the 180.