Slow-motion video of my Remington 11-87 cycling

[StealthyBlagga]

After reading the threads about the guy using an 870 shell carrier in his 11-87 autoloader, and being in need of a replacement carrier for my 11-87 after my original got chewed up, I wanted to understand how risky using an 870 carrier might be. Although some people have been able to make the 870 carrier run, my concern is that the timing has to be perfect - if the shell feeds slightly too slowly out of the mag tube, a monster jam will result when the shell carrier attempts to lift the half-fed shell up into line with the chamber. The original 11-87 carrier overcomes this problem by momentarily locking open after each shot, and releasing only when the next shell trips the carrier release latch.

As luck would have it, a few days ago I shot a subgun match with Richard Lage of Lage Manufacturing/MAX-11 fame (www.max-11.com), and he was kind enough to take some slow-motion video of my 11-87 cycling and feeding. He even offered to host the video on his website. You can watch the video here: http://www.max-11.com/videos/sgslomo.MOV. This video shows 5 sequential rounds of Estate's Super Sport Competition Target 2-3/4" #7.5 1-1/8oz birdshot load fired from my 12ga Remington 11-87 Premier shotgun's fully loaded extended magazine (Wolff spring). The bolt's hesitation as it locks open at the rear of its travel, the delay while the fresh shell moves into place, and the violence of the Easy Loader's movement are all clear (I can see now why the little roll pins break so frequently). For my particular gun and ammo combination, and seeing what appears to be some variability in the delay between the bolt locking open and the fresh shell being ready for feeding, I think I'll stick with the correct 11-87 shell carrier and resist the temptation of the 870 carrier. As always, YYMV.

I hope people find this video informative. My sincere thanks go to Richard Lage for taking the time to edit and host this video on his MAX-11 website.

[outerlimits]

fantastic...and yer right about the ezloader pins...

[Viggen]

Thanks, that was great.

That leads to a much better understanding on why the pins on my EZ-loader have such a short lifespan. And now to figure out some sort of a fix before heading for the Italian side of the shotgun world.

[5Shot]

Pretty cool - I need one of those cameras!

[StealthyBlagga]

Thanks, that was great.

That leads to a much better understanding on why the pins on my EZ-loader have such a short lifespan. And now to figure out some sort of a fix before heading for the Italian side of the shotgun world.

There are a couple of easy solutions. until now I have simply inserted a piece of piano wire inside the roll pin before installing it; I did this 3 years ago and have not had a pin break since. I am about to install another EZ Loader, and this time I'm going to try using a Remington pin, which is a solid steel pin that is inserted and then spread at one end (like a rivet) to hold it in place.

[GentlemanJim]

VERY cool vid

I have no idea how you could use an 870 carrier in an 1100

I only use remington pins...roll pins are cheap junk

Thanks for posting!!

Jim

[Dan Sierpina]

Straight music wire works extremely well. It's tougher than the Remington rivet pins.

[wide45]

That's some great vid!

[Intel6]

VERY cool vid

I have no idea how you could use an 870 carrier in an 1100

Thanks for posting!!

Jim

If he was reading old threads here on BE then I guess I was "that guy" that had installed an 870 carrier in my 11-87 Police SG. When I was having the SG Vang Comped I talked with Hans about a carrier conversion they had listed on his site. He said it was basically an 870 carrier and while it didn't lock the bolt back after that last shot it also didn't lock back the bolt when there was still ammo in the gun. I was looking for something other than an easy loader as i wanted to get rid of the release button I had to hit to load a shell but since it was more of a defensive SG I didn't want the EZ lifter. The 870 carrier makes my 11-87P load like and 870 and it functions fine. As far as it locking back when empty, I look at it the same as some do about not having a handgun lock back when empty. You should always keep it loaded so why do you need it to lock back?

Jim, if you look at a trigger group of an 1100 and an 870 then you will see that it is exactly the same but the 1100 carriter has the button and tabthat the shell has to hit when coming out of the magazine tube. Both have that funny shapped lever (dog?) that makes the lifter function when the bolt is closing whether by spring or manual force.

Neal in AZ

Edited June 2, 2008 by Intel6

[mwx40x40]

Can you just remove the button from the 1100 carrier and achieve the same thing? I think I a fellow running an 1100 like this a while back.

[D.carden]

Thanks, that was great.

That leads to a much better understanding on why the pins on my EZ-loader have such a short lifespan. And now to figure out some sort of a fix before heading for the Italian side of the shotgun world.

If the roll pin is what's in there now, you can take a piece of your mag tube spring (I use wolff springs and there about .040) and twist it into the roll pin. Take enough to staighten-out. (about an inch and a half) Make a 90deg bend at a half inch so a pair of pliers can grab/twist the wire and feed it in there.

That spring wire is some tough stuff.............Easy to find too..

[Craigar45]

Great video! Always fascinating to watch firearms in slow motion from an engineering point of view. Anyone have a slow-mo vid of a SX2? The rate of fire is noticeably faster- it would be neat to compare them both.

C

[jobob]

I'm sure it's a great video. Wish my computer could play it.

Edited: I re-downloaded Quicktime, and now it works. Excellent vid!

Edited June 3, 2008 by jobob

[el pres]

Very nice video !!!

[Patrick Sweeney]

Very cool. I assume he knows the frame rate, and thus we can easily calculate the native cyclic rate of your 11-87?

I've never understood the fascination with getting the absolute-fastest-cycling shotgun. I've shot wicked-fast times with some of the ostensibly slowest guns out there, and wasn't waiting on the gun.

[StealthyBlagga]

Very cool. I assume he knows the frame rate, and thus we can easily calculate the native cyclic rate of your 11-87?

The frame rate is 1200fps. On average, the bolt cycle time looks to be around 175mS (including lock-open time). Adding another, say, 10ms lock time, I'd guess a cyclic rate of around 325rpm.

Edited June 5, 2008 by StealthyBlagga

[SingleStacker45]

]I just got my new 100 tactical and I see the loading issue. I too don't like how the easy loader extends. Too bad they don't make a tactical version. What about reducing the tab slightly on the lifter catch and making it less sensitive to shell placement on insertion. It looks to me that you could take a few thousands off and make it still function as intended.

Mule

Edited August 10, 2008 by SingleStacker45

[pdice]

Straight music wire works extremely well. It's tougher than the Remington rivet pins.

Do you wrap the wire around the carrier when you are done?

[jobob]

Watching that vid makes me doubly sure of what was causing some jams in my 11-87 that were driving me crazy at the last Ironman. The carrier would unlatch and pop up a little and prevent the next round from feeding. When I originally got the gun, and knew little about it, I thought I'd really help it function by trimming a few coils off of the carrier latch spring. Gee, I sure was smart, huh? And it did work fine for 2 or 3 years, then suddenly started jamming. That heavy Ezloader would override the weak spring. I've since replaced the spring, and it seems to work now, but if something is going to go wrong, it will at Ironman!

[Dan Sierpina]

Straight music wire works extremely well. It's tougher than the Remington rivet pins.

Do you wrap the wire around the carrier when you are done?

You simply cut the music wire a bit long, peen one end with a small hammer, insert what is now a pin, peen the other end. It's a solid, spring temper rivet now.

[pdice]

Straight music wire works extremely well. It's tougher than the Remington rivet pins.

Do you wrap the wire around the carrier when you are done?

You simply cut the music wire a bit long, peen one end with a small hammer, insert what is now a pin, peen the other end. It's a solid, spring temper rivet now.

Sounds simple enough. Where would I find music wire? Are there different sizes?

[Dan Sierpina]

Straight music wire works extremely well. It's tougher than the Remington rivet pins.

Do you wrap the wire around the carrier when you are done?

You simply cut the music wire a bit long, peen one end with a small hammer, insert what is now a pin, peen the other end. It's a solid, spring temper rivet now.

Sounds simple enough. Where would I find music wire? Are there different sizes?

MSC carries it. The diameter you need is . 062 for that pin.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXN...PMT4NO=56896708

Keep in mind that the price is for 100 pieces of material.