Differences Between GM & M

[outerlimits]

Been thinking about this for a long time. being a humble master, i accept the facts, and here are a few. I’m sure you guyz will add to this list.

More Accurate

Let’s face it, GM’s don’t shoot D’s, and rarely ever miss or hit no-shoots. On difficult shots, they are just as aggressive. Masters shoot D’s often and accept them.

Faster

Doing everything-nuff said?

Consistent Draws

GM’s never blow a draw, regardless of the start position. They are always smooth.

Quick Reloads

How many times have you watched and haven’t even noticed the reload. They don’t bobble them-Masters will.

Shoot Smarter

Rarely does a GM risk the reward trying to cut corners solving a shooting solution. They don’t have huge brain farts either (like FTE’s). Masters, on the other hand, will try to be fancy when they shouldn’t.

No Bad Days

These guys never have a bad day-I mean a blow out. To them it may appear bad, but Masters trash stages and entire matches.

[JThompson]

Been thinking about this for a long time. being a humble master, i accept the facts, and here are a few. I’m sure you guyz will add to this list.

More Accurate

Let’s face it, GM’s don’t shoot D’s, and rarely ever miss or hit no-shoots. On difficult shots, they are just as aggressive. Masters shoot D’s often and accept them.

Faster

Doing everything-nuff said?

Consistent Draws

GM’s never blow a draw, regardless of the start position. They are always smooth.

Quick Reloads

How many times have you watched and haven’t even noticed the reload. They don’t bobble them-Masters will.

Shoot Smarter

Rarely does a GM risk the reward trying to cut corners solving a shooting solution. They don’t have huge brain farts either (like FTE’s). Masters, on the other hand, will try to be fancy when they shouldn’t.

No Bad Days

These guys never have a bad day-I mean a blow out. To them it may appear bad, but Masters trash stages and entire matches.

I don't think you can speak in absolutes... I've seen GMs blow up just the same as M... though not as often.

[PINMAN44]

Remember this.

ANY GIVEN SUNDAY.

No one is 100 percent consistent.

[EZ Bagger]

I've seen GM's make many of the mistakes you noted, but rarely see them double up and/or have the mistake lead to a complete lack of focus on the tasks remaining.

[scribble]

Heard TJ try and make up a Mike with a No Shoot at the SS nats last weekend

[dirtypool40]

As said above there are no absolutes.

I think you're generalizations are correct though, given a "solid, middle of the road M vs. solid middle of the road GM". It's a tenth here and a tenth there, but better points, more consistency, and a little more technique on certain things, like movement.

The thing is, you can make and be competitive as an "M" (or "B") with one or two things on the skills "EQ" turned way up and the others kinida slacking. For instance, you can have fast gun handling, and shoot really fast but have sloppy points and movement. As a GM (and I' ain't there yet) if you want to be competitive you have to do it ALL well.

GM's can win local matches doing a few things really well, but when you get to the Area level, the guy who wins is doing it ALL well.

[j1b]

I don't know that it's as clean as that.

As a GM I shot many D's, I shot many no-shoots. I blew up on many stages. I had stages with not just one miss - nope I managed to get two. I had an FTE on a target as a GM.

I honestly believe the difference is very finite. They are subtle differences that add up quickly.

For me though, the first step in the process is to escape the thought process of GM versus M. I know it's tangible, but with where you're at in your shooting skill, it isn't real.

What seperates the best shooters from the second best shooters. Less tangible, but probably more real.

Then I think you can begin a process of differences, understanding them and getting to address them. To some degree it's about blow ups, mistakes, etc. etc. Every national championship is generally won be s/he who screws up the least. Which implies by itself that everyone in contention is going to have a foul up here or there. Just who screws up the least.

The deal for me though is that the differences add up. They are small, tiny, but there. And on every stage they take a bite here and a bite there until all of the sudden you're not racing with them.

In a four stage match, if the total match points add up to 400, and you get 360 points you're at 90%. You basically lost 10 points per stage (on average). Now you start adding up "magnitude" of mistakes. Let's say the match winner had one miss in the match. He loses basically 15 points (for simplicity's sake). Let's say you had a miss and a no-shoot. You're down 25 points. There's ten of the points based on "screw ups"

So now you're taking the remaining 30 points and figuring out where you lost them in a 4 stage match. Down to 7.5 points per stage now. On a 100 point stage with a ten hit factor each second costs you 10 points. So if you were off .75 seconds to the guy you lost to, you lost that 7.5 point average there.

.75 seconds!!!! That's a slightly flubbed load. That's a slight mis-step. That's being a tenth too long on transitions.

So it all adds up, little by little. To the point that in the end you're down 40 points and shooting a respectable %. But you're like Damn! 40 points!

I know, I WAY oversimplified this. I was just trying to figure out a way to say that 1) I think the difference is slight between the two shooters 2) we all screw up, just screw up less and 3) it is a mental game. That .75 second difference on that one stage probably happened more upstairs then it did out of the holster.

I hope some of that made some kind of sense. BTW - it's where I'm at. I was once a GM - but can no longer make that claim. The differences for me are subtle, but I notice them.

J

[outerlimits]

i shoot with GM's each month, and get my share of wins, but i'm not referring to those guys. guess i'm referring to the upper echelon.

[MichiganShootist]

At the 2007 Single Stack I watched TGO... on two conseutive stages do the following

1. Mike a shoot house head shot at about 12 feet

2. Fail to seat his mag at the LAMR so it fell out when he fired his first round

And he won the match.....

I think GMs are just like top level golfers... they make far fewer mistakes... but when they do they can get out of trouble fast.

[Flexmoney]

I noted...a few weeks back...that we tend to post about things from our own (really personal) perspectives. We will elevate a skill (or equipment, for that matter) based on something that we have either had great success with...or, something that we feel we are lacking.

Heck...we even do it when we seek advice. Ever notice that who you talk to when you are wanting to talk about something? We often seek advisors that we know will give us the answers that we really want to hear.

Think about that. On your drive to/from the range this weekend...think about why you talk about the things you talk about.

[JThompson]

I noted...a few weeks back...that we tend to post about things from our own (really personal) perspectives. We will elevate a skill (or equipment, for that matter) based on something that we have either had great success with...or, something that we feel we are lacking.

Heck...we even do it when we seek advice. Ever notice that who you talk to when you are wanting to talk about something? We often seek advisors that we know will give us the answers that we really want to hear.

Think about that. On your drive to/from the range this weekend...think about why you talk about the things you talk about.

Spot on imo.

[dirtypool40]

I think GMs are just like top level golfers...

I use that analogy all the time.

The difference between A and GM is the quality of the BAD stages, and how well they recover. Everyone's GOOD stage are very similar. It's how many good ones can you put together, and how far down your bad ones drag you down.

[Ramas]

I think GMs are just like top level golfers...

I use that analogy all the time.

The difference between A and GM is the quality of the BAD stages, and how well they recover. Everyone's GOOD stage are very similar. It's how many good ones can you put together, and how far down your bad ones drag you down.

Good pint here.

In my opinion top GM's have a great balance between skills, tactics and mind.

Edited May 2, 2008 by Ramas

[Catfish]

Talking with Angus at the SS Nats last week - we asked him this same question....

His response was, it's got nothing to do with the shooting. He then waved his arm, pointing and encompassing the whole stage with his movement and said "THIS has nothing to do with shooting. Remember that."

[tightloop]

I think GMs are just like top level golfers...

I use that analogy all the time.

The difference between A and GM is the quality of the BAD stages, and how well they recover. Everyone's GOOD stage are very similar. It's how many good ones can you put together, and how far down your bad ones drag you down.

DP...

Since Zhunter isn't a Top level golfer any longer and presently is an A shooter, does that mean he won't make GM????

Just joshing, I think Z is pretty driven about shooting , and probably will be M class B4 years end...

Tloop

[MichiganShootist]

I guess I started us down the GMs are like top golfers analogy. What I was trying to get at... is that TGO can make two terrible rookie mistakes in two of the first stages and still win a huge match with relative ease.

The rest of us mortals can't recover that quick and might fumble the recovery or let the mistakes ruin the whole match. He wins with his mental toughness as much as his shooting skill.... it takes both.

I was playing in a pro-am one time in the cart with Orville Moody. Sarg hit a ball so far into a woods that it took at least 30 minutes to find it. An average or even excellent golfer would have been hoplessly out of luck. He was in dense woods over 200 yards in every direction from any form of grass. Orville however opened the blade on a 4 iron and hit the ball straight up in the air through a hole in the trees 60 or 70 feet over head from the bed of pine needles his ball was resting on. The ball then hooked sharply left and traveled about 215 yards and landed 20 feet from the flag.

He looked over at me (I was his playing partner) smiled and said.... not too shabby for a sky hook... Huh?

That kind of coolness under fire is a rare gift that I think a lot of the GMs (or top participants in any sport) have developed.

[zhunter]

You guys talking about Robbie remind me of the old days and Jack Nicklaus

He knows he is better than you, you know he is better than you, and he knows that you know he is better than you.

Not gonna beat him when the above is true, and as far as I can tell, that is the case presently.

[rgkeller]

There are GMs and then there are GMs

I have shot three times with national level GMs and with two Hall of Famers.

The national level GMs are as much better than "ordinary" GMs as one of those ordinaries is to a local Master.

The Hall of Famer still shooting his best was another class beyond, maybe two.

[benos]

GM's: Call Shots with less error than M, A, etc.

Because of that they do everything faster and more confidently. Transitions, mag changes, leaving positions, make up shots.

be

[brospizza]

in my opinion for whatever its worth

confidence plays a big part

wether that be in the shooting itself, the movements, or the skills in general

knowing where the shot is going before it gets there means so much (calling your shots)

and the same said for knowing that you dont have to worry about the reload because you have practiced it to perfection

or any other skill for that matter

now with that said you can still make mental mistakes

it only takes a split second to lose focus and thats when you flub things

so i guess confidence and focus are my answers to the question

if there was one

[pjb45]

Having to shot with a super squad at A2, watched a couple of supersquads at Nationals and talked with a bunch of them, I have formed some opinions.

I watched Robbie talk with Taran about a stage at L10 last year. Rob said come to here and shoot then move. All the other GMs took an extra two steps. My lesson learned was that the upper tier GMs really do economize the motion-number of steps, movement, etc. Less wasted effort means lower elapsed time.

Additonally, Rob, Taran, Mike S, Phil S etc. are all ready to shoot when they get to where they are supposed to be. No extra time spent looking for the sights or the target.

Mike Voigt is awesome at leaving a shooting stance. He moves quickly. So does Dave S.

Taran just keeps moving. At last years L/P/R last year he gave me some very specific advice. "Hit the first step with your left foot, plant your right foot here, shoot left, step with your left foot there, shoot right." He planned every step he was going to take to get into and out of and into the next shooting position. Taran never seems to stop moving or looking for his next shot.

All the upper tier GMs time the swingers, bobber, etc exceptionally well. Angus gave a mini clinic at the Dual Championship (CA-SS/Prod) a couple years ago on this topic. When it appears they are shooting it, when it is hidden they are shooting other targets.

GMs have the shooting mechanics down perfectly. Robbie has said "you can not fool yourself into thinking..." If you do not practice each aspect of our sport, when it comes match time, you can not fool yourself into thinking your are going to be great at something you do not practice. For example; Timed Standards. How many people got a reload in and shoots off at the SSNats this year. I got some great advice from Don Golembieski. He said do not worry about hurrying your shots just to get a reload in and more shots. Focus on getting your hits on the paper and forget about the reload. This made sense for my ability. It worked out right for me. For others it might not have been good advice but for me it was great, I could not fool myself into thinking I could get 12 rounds on the paper in 6 seconds. Had I practice timed standards I would have probably used a different plan.

Sure GMs make mistakes but they also correct faster. As Steve Anderson once wrote, whittling a tooth pick with a chain saw--they are always looking for ways to cut time off the run. The shooting accurately they have nailed, it is getting to the shooting spot, leaving it, and doing it faster is what I seen differentiates them from the rest.

[HSMITH]

The most common misconception I am aware of is that the top dogs shoot fast, they really don't. I have shot a couple big matches with Manny Bragg and Ted Puente, two of the best shooters in the game right now. Neither one shoots fast at all, lots of B class shooters will shoot faster than they do but get absolutely slaughtered in points, stage time and consequently hit factor. When they shoot it takes as much time as is needed to shoot an A, nothing more and nothing less. I have taken a class with Manny and Ted too, the single biggest thing I have taken from it is that all the rest of the stuff that we need to work on gives us time to shoot the points, call the shots and shoot a ton of stage points. Doing all the 'other' stuff as efficiently as possible gives us plenty of time to shoot points. Splits? It'll be a LONG time before I worry about splits again.