When to change guns?

[John Tuley]

Hey guys,

I'm currently running my HK USP Tactical .45 in L-10; the only mod to it is a fiber front sight. Stock trigger, no magwell, etc. (I'm only shooting it in L10 since the USP tac isn't Production legal, despite most other USPs being in there. Anyway.)

I'm currently classified at 37.5%, and my scores aren't really that consistent. I have several classifiers in the high-40/low-50 range, and I still bomb some and get 25's and 30's.

A lot of people are telling me to ditch the HK and go buy (gun-of-the-week-here). Money's kind of tight right now, so part of the reason I'm sticking the the HK right now is that I can't afford a new gun. (Also, I actually like the piece, regardless of its suitability for USPSA.) I also keep hearing/reading "it's not the arrow, it's the Indian" or similar phrases.

Also, the last time I shot a local Steel Challenge match, I came in second overall with my optic'd Buckmark pistol.

So how do you know when your kit is holding you back? I shoot pretty well with the .22 (who doesn't?) and I'm still D with the .45. How will I know when it's time to go get a competition-tuned toy (be that production or limited) in order to progress as a competitor? I'm still learning a lot about shooting -- I only picked up pistol about a year ago -- and my scores show the fact that I'm improving. Locally, I've gone from last to maybe midway through the L10 listing, though perhaps that's because a lot of people here abandoned L10 for SS.

Should I keep shooting my stock, not-right-for-USPSA gun for now, and just keep focusing on fundamentals, or switch to (for instance) a tricked-out XD9 with ~2lb, next-to-no-travel trigger? Will that still help my shooting with the HK, which is my primary defensive weapon? (Of course, I will continue to practice it with at the range, no matter what.)

Thanks,

-- John.

[AikiDale]

Careful there John, you are about to go on the spending spree ....

Have one of the better shooters shoot the gun for you. See if it holds them back. If, for example, an A class shooter can get A class times with it so can you.

If you want to move to Limited Division then you want an S_I from gunsmith in .40 S&W

[shooting for M]

I don't know much about HK's for competition, so take this for what it's worth.

There is a modified "LEM" trigger for competition you might want to look into, unless that's what yours has. Just keep shooting, and save some cash, and let a new gun be a reward for something, like, making C class, or B class, you might appreciate it more that way. The guy that took second at Area 2 L-10 was using an HK with this type of trigger, and he is a Master class shooter, he beat a lot of us using 1911's. There may not be much in the way of parts selection for an HK, but it's what ya got, so use it.

Just my $.02

Jason

[Matt Cheely]

45 ammo is expensive. Buying a glock 17 or 34, and shooting 9mm will be much cheaper and the platform won't hold you back at all.

[Joe4d]

If you cant afford a new gun then part of the question isnt really relevant. All you can do is shoot what you have and become the best you can with the equipment. As to the other part is it holding you back ? Yes it is. especially if you are running factory 45 ammo. The USP has several issues. A total lack of parts unless you go through an authorized dealer and pay the markup and many of them wont give you the part but want you to pay for installation. I have shot several HK's even the super duper threaded mark whatever mall ninja extrodinar model and the trigger was terrible, not just normal factory needs a tuneup but really bad and heavy. I have also spent too much time working on engines held together with O rings to trust a pistol with them. I would seriously consider selling it for something more suitable for defense and competition. Depending on the grip angle that fits you a production rig based on a 9mm M&P, XD, or Glock will suit you well. It can also grow with you as your skill and finances improve. You could start stock then next year add a profesional trigger job.

[HSMITH]

Bear in mind reading this that I think the HK USP series is one of the clunkiest and poorest guns out there to shoot, I have shot every variant of them I am aware of because I wanted to buy one when they came out, but they just suck as far as shootability goes......

Get a different gun, it is holding you back. What to get? I don't know, try everything you can. Your squadmates at the matches will probably be more than willing to let you try out their guns. Find one that feels good to you and shoots nicely, go with that one. I am partial to the CZ-75 types and the Beretta 92 style guns.

[el pres]

As long as you can afford the 45 ammo is the first thing that came to mind!

Shoot whatever you shoot well, the only down side would be the mag capacity and maybe recoil ???

[John Tuley]

I knew there would be a lot of HK hate here. Well, like I said ... I bought it before I knew about USPSA. Yeah, it's a little clunky. Yeah, the trigger is long, and pretty hard (and this is the "match" trigger). Yeah, factory .45 kicks pretty good -- although the USP has pretty light recoil for a .45, in my experience. Besides, if I can get good with this, I can get good with anything, right? I started coming to USPSA matches to learn how to handle a pistol, and it's really doing that for me. It was only much later, as my scores started to go up, that I started to kind of fixate on competing and being a beter USPSA shooter.

As Joe and Aiki pointed out, I'm looking at a "spending spree" sometime in the future. But what I'm considering is two courses of action: first, to keep shooting the USP in practice and in matches, which means that I have to keep buying .45. (I wish I had a press, but on $14.5K a year ...) The other option is to cut back on USPSA matches, where I have to shoot the .45, and do a lot of practice with my Buckmark. .22 is cheap (cheaper still since my dad gave me about 8K rounds a year ago, and I've only shot about half that so far) so I can work on fundamentals (well, trigger control, calling shots, transitions, etc.) 'til the cows come home, and keep shooting Steel Challenge and whatever else the local clubs will let me go .22 in. All the while, saving up the money I'm not spending on that .45 ammo to buy a new gun.

I guess I could sell the USP, though I'm inclined not to. I still like the gun for its reliability, grip (which, despite everyone saying is "like a brick," fits my hands pretty well), ease of maintenance, and safety characteristics (and I like .45 for defense, but that's a thread drift I don't want to start here). Maybe Joe and others are right, though ... sell it, get an (XD/M&P/Glock) and slowly upgrade that.

I like the idea of having a better shooter put it through its paces and see how they do ... but I can't find anybody else who wants to shoot it! Every time my range buddies suggest rotating guns around (one shoots an STI in Limited, the other an XD9 in production) so that we can try different divisions, even my friends don't want to touch the USP (much less feed it).

Thanks for all the input so far!

-- John.

[el pres]

No hate here ! I totally agree with your statment, if you can shoot a stock service HK you could

shoot anything ! I totally believe that if you practice and learn with a heavier, harder trigger, harder kicking

gun , you will learn great control over your equiptment !!

In guitar playing I use to put on heavy strings to practice and build strenth, then destroy it with a light set !!

In the same way a heavier trigger will teach you great trigger control...

[Madcap Magician]

John,

Not to down the USP as a pistol, for they are excellent COMBAT guns. They are some of the most thoroughly tested guns on the planet, it's just the ergo's are weird. From a competition oriented side, it is not the easiest pistol to learn on. Just pointing this out, but how many big names run an HK? If you want to continue your path with a .45 ACP USP, by all means go for it. If your resources are limited, I'd recommend something like a Glock 17/34 or Smith M&P in 9mm. The Glocks/Smiths have much better triggers, better ergonomics, and in my opinion are easier to shoot. The support gear for the two mentioned is much more available and cheaper. And the biggest reason, 9mm is half the price of .45, especially if you are not reloading. Personally, I'd sell the USP and get a used Glock 17 or M&P, good holster, some extra mags, maybe some sights, and depending on your price, either ammo or a basic reloading set if desired. Honestly, if you started shooting the 9mm the same amount as the .45, you could take the savings and build up an HK fund. Since the HK45 has come out, I think the USP45s are going to see a real drop in price for used guns. Just my .02.

[P.E. Kelley]

Let’s see…..

Is the pistol reliable? (Check)

Is the pistol accurate enough? (Check)

Got Mags? (Check)

Got a belt holster and mag pouches? (Check)

L-10 Division Compatible (Check)

Add copious amount of ammo and master the fundamentals.

Then YOU can and will be the judge of what is holding you back. (if anything)

There are a PILE of people with high zoot full on grandmaster gear that will never progress beyond

“C” class. That is just how it is.

If you are 5’0” odds are that you are not going to play in the NBA. No matter how cool your Nike’s are.

Enjoy you current gear and play hard.

Patrick

[racerba]

Two statements you made in your post says that:

my scores aren't really that consistent.

1 - the equipment is not holding you back - it's you. Until you become consistent, it's you.

Money's kind of tight right now,...I can't afford a new gun.

2 - you don't need to buy new equipment right now

Edited April 29, 2008 by racerba

[John Tuley]

1 - the equipment is not holding you back - it's you. Until you become consistent, it's you.

This is pretty much what I thought, so I'm leaning towards agreeing that I shouldn't buy new stuff right now. I feel like I (me, not Sam Shooter or Gary Grandmaster) should be able to make it into C class with this pistol. I've shot 50% classifiers with it. I just need to do that repeatedly. I'm not sure how much farther it can take me than that, though.

For example: my trigger control is not great; it's probably not even acceptably good. Which means that when you have a loooonnng pull, there's plenty of room to screw up. When I put a couple rounds through my friend's 'smithed STI, or when I shoot my .22 (very short, pretty light trigger), I'm starting to call my shots at least 80% of the time. Not so with the USP. I think the sights are on the whole time, but then the bullet goes somewhere else. I'm sure I'm jerking or flinching at the last instant, and that can be trained out. But I don't have that problem with guns with better triggers.

Another example: the last time I went to the range for practice, my splits were around 0.6 with transitions around 0.8 (both plus or minus some), with IPSC targets at 12-15 yards. OK, not GM for sure. Maybe good enough for C class, as long as my hits are good. The next day was classifier match and I pushed too hard and choked several stages -- definitely me, not the gun. But the point is, I wonder if having a lighter recoil (i.e. 9mm) would get me where I want to go. I know I can run my .22 with splits around 0.3 with iron sights, a little less when I put the dot back on. (Please, nobody tell me to go open!)

So, for sure I know I have a long road of practice ahead of me before I meet my own definition of "good" at this sport. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. And I could do better, even with the equipment I have. I could stop fumbling reloads, slow down a bit to make sure I only have good hits, etc. Reread Brian's book. Do Steve's drills every night. I know that I have a lot of work to do, and a new gun won't be a "magic bullet" (pardon the pun) that will catapult me to stardom. I also know that in the long run, this isn't the right gun. Which means that someday, I will have to bite the bullet (pardon another one) and buy a new competition gun.

What I'm looking for (and some people have provided) is advice on how to know when to make that step. I'm pretty convinced that now is not the time. But the day is coming, and I'd like to know how you recognize that you're shooting at the limit of the "shooting system," meaning "shooter and gun." I know that some people just don't have the talent to make it all the way, and I'm pretty sure I'm one of them. I also know that many people prefer one platform over another, and that you can be a GM with a 1911 or a CZ or a Glock or a ______ ... and that, once you get past the innate talent and determination, and the level of practice, it can come down to how the shooter fits with the gun. How do you know when you have the right gun? These are the sorts of things I'm hoping to find out.

Thanks again,

-- John.

PS: thanks to everyone who is replying to this topic. I appreciate all the input and the friendly community here on the forums.

[Clyde]

Removed

Edited April 30, 2008 by Clyde

[AikiDale]

While you are looking try to decide which Division you like best. Single Stack, Open, Limited, Limited 10, Production or Revolver. See which group seems to be most to your liking. Then figure out which gun most of the cool kids are shooting. The Biggest Dogs are shooting a sponsors gun. The vast majority of the shooters in a given division shoot very few guns. I've found over the years that no matter which sport you look at, there is a reason the majority of the players use similar equipment and just to be 'fashionable' is not the reason.

Take revolver for example. Could one shoot revolver division with a Colt or a Ruger or an H&R or a Webley? Yep. Why do most shooters use a S&W 625? Because Jerry shoots one? Or is it because most revolver shooters, including Jerry, know from collective mass experience it is the best tool for a particular job?

Welcome to the game and good shooting!

[DrShooter]

I'd say if the gun is running right, then the next thing you need is a loading press. Just save your brass until you can afford one. I have an HK (not for the game) that is really easy shooting with my game ammo. .45 is nice in L10 with 230s.

I find the cost of the pistol (at least the ones I buy) is only a small part of my cost of shooting business.

I know guys who run the HK Expert successfully in USPSA, and I saw the HK "team" at Nationals in Missoula and got to check out their triggers...very nice. Only real draw back I can see to HKs is the cost of the mags, but S_I mags are pretty expensive too.

I've been tempted by that tactical several times, but have resisted so far.

You will collect many pistols in a lifetime of shooting, and you might as well play the heck out of this first one while it's on stage.

[shooting for M]

Something that's been nagging me since my first reply is the ammo thing. Part of you trigger control/calling shot problem might be flinching. 190-200 PF ammo, like most factory .45 probably isn't helping without copious amounts of dryfire. This is just a thought, I am not one to talk about trigger control, just thought I'd bounce that off the rest of you.

Reloading might help, if you've got more time than money, you might want to try a single stage, if both are tight, maybe try a Lee press. I'm not trying to talk you out of a Dillon, I've got a 650 and wouldn't give it up at gunpoint, but they ain't cheap. I guess you get what you pay for, but Lee presses really aren't all that bad, if your not loading more than 1K a month, they'll last a long time. Either way if you are going to practice a lot they'll pay for themselves in a fairly short amount of time, plus you can load what you like. If you aren't concerned about shooting lead you should be able to load 1K for less than $100 if you buy in bulk, and have brass. I don't know what you are paying for factory, but I doubt you are paying less that $100 for 500 rounds. Now reloading isn't really cheaper, it just lets you shoot more, just ask around.

Anyway, do what you like, I hope I have been helpful in your dillemma.

Now I'm up to $.04

Jason

P.S. Another thought might be to ask a friend for the use of thier loader from time to time. That gives you someone to help that know what they are doing and saves money for the time being. A fair payment would probably be some components, or some cold ones to share after the loading is done.

$.06

Edited April 29, 2008 by shooting for M

[waxman]

1 more thing to consider. I shot for a little over a year with a 99% stock XD. I learned to deal with the crappy stock trigger, and even the poor sights. After getting USED to that , i bought a SV sight tracker. I now have to continually try and forget all of the the things I became used to on the XD. I cant tell you how many times my SV has went bang, while I was prepping the trigger for my next target. I would say Know for sure, what you want and then make sacrifices and buy it. It is hard to relearn a totally different platform. The whole trick, is to KNOW what you really want to shoot.

[Coach]

John,

I have only seen you shoot steel that one time last month. Usually at the USPSA matches you are in another squad, but I just glanced at the scores from the last WVPPS matches. I would suggest staying with the gun until you are a solid C shooter. You are still early in your development iron out your technique and shoot this gun for a time. I would also say not to worry about splits and transitions and the like until the points are more solid. Shoot slower and reolad and move fast right now.

Stay away from the XD is my advice no matter what. (Unless you want to buy mine)

If you are going to make South Central this coming weekend I would be willing to loan you my M&P 9mm and rig if you bring your own ammo. Just PM me and let me know.

[Kingman]

I have a HK tactical .40 wtih an LEM trigger in it. I personally can shoot 2 second bill drills with it.

Sights are nice and it is long enough to get a good clear sight picture.

Practice some and you will get it.

[Flexmoney]

Something that's been nagging me since my first reply is the ammo thing. Part of you trigger control/calling shot problem might be flinching. 190-200 PF ammo...

I feel the same way. I'm not dogging on your gun...at all. In fact, I am probably of the opposite mind. Once you learn a bit more about how to shoot it, it won't be much of a hindrance at all.

Shooting factory 45...you have lots of extra power that is working against you. Plus...and I think this is bigger...the factory ammo just cost soooo much.

I don't see an issue with your Hk. I do see a hurdle in not reloading. If you can't afford a press, then I just can't see where you can afford to buy very much 45 off the shelf...not enough to get you up the performance ladder very far.

I'd almost suggest going with just the .22 for most of your practice. There is so much other stuff that you can work on with the rimfire gun. But, there is the fact that you can't work on your grip and stance for your Major power factor gun (which happens to be your self-defense gun too). From what you've posted...you need that work too.

[HSMITH]

The USP is one of THE hardest guns to shoot well out there. How many of the guys that are saying that if it runs shoot it are handicapping themselves and their advancement with a USP?

I don't care what anyone else thinks, equipment DOES make a difference, and it can be a HUGE difference. Yes, I am fully aware that Sevigny and Vogel shoot all but box stock Glocks and do incredible things, the argument is that those guns FIT those guys. TGO doesn't shoot anything that doesn't suit him perfectly, take a look at his resume. You can get used to just about anything, but that doesn't make it FIT. Sending a shooter out to try to learn the advanced skills we consider fundamentals with a USP is like sending your 5 year old out to learn to ride on Lance Armstrong's road race bike. Is that bike a great tool for a certain job and certain users? It sure is, but you can damn near guarantee that your kid isn't going to like riding bikes and if by chance he does it is going to take a LOT longer for the kid to develop any sort of skill using such ill fitting equipment.

Using hard to shoot equipment doesn't make the accomplishment any more valuable, the shooter more noble, or anything else. If that is what you have then by all means shoot it, but if you have a choice I think it is foolish to stick with equipment that will inhibit learning at the highest rate that particular shooter is capable of learning at.

[Greg Bell]

Using hard to shoot equipment doesn't make the accomplishment any more valuable, the shooter more noble, or anything else. If that is what you have then by all means shoot it, but if you have a choice I think it is foolish to stick with equipment that will inhibit learning at the highest rate that particular shooter is capable of learning at.

Howard I like that! Why suffer with an unsuitable piece of gear. For me if I couldn't achieve some level of success and improve along the way I'd stop doing it.

[DeweyH]

I understand your pain. I have tried lots of things looking for the perfect setup. I even had a USP .45 when I first started shooting IDPA. I also realize now that you can do great things with just about any equipment, if you practice properly to gain mastery. Nothing takes the place of practice. That being said some gear is more user friendly and wallet friendly than others. My standard reply to all new shooters it to get a Glock 17 and an Advantage Arms .22 conversion. 9mm is cheap and .22 is even cheaper. I still miss mine. You may be able to break even on what you can get out of the USP Tactical and what the 17 and conversion cost together. The 17 is also a good defense weapon.

Eventually you will want to start reloading.

Dewey

[Mistral404]

I have owned two HKs. I would agree that the trigger on the stock gun is diffucult in a competitive environment. There should be no arguement on that issue. There are people who can work on the trigger for you. The mag release can be a problem also. Not much luck there. Shooting 200 powerfactor ammo is a disadvantage with almost any gun.

If you are looking for another gun, go production for the 9mm. The typical choices are XD, CZ and Glock. Almost all need a trigger job. You can probably get into it for less than $1,000 with all new stuff.

My shooting improved when I found someone to load my ammo at a 165-170 power factor. Then I could start focusing on the basics. I stayed with a SS for a number of years before moving onto a Limited gun. Knowing what I know now, I might have started with a production gun first.

I believe your gun is holding you back. Get it worked on or get a new platform.