Does IDPA Need A Grand Master Classification ?

[PJONES5]

This has always been my "take".. but obviously there are many variables

USPSA ------------------------ IDPA

GM ------------------------------ ??

M --------------------------------Low Master to Master

A --------------------------------Expert to Master

B---------------------------------Sharpshooter to Expert

C---------------------------------Marksman to Sharpshooter

D---------------------------------Uncl to Marksman

Been my experience also,you are spot on.

pat

[Jake Di Vita]

I don't think that is even close to being spot on.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Been shooting IDPA for some time. 9 years to be exact. Competed in three states until my knees gave out. I still do what I can to help out. Since it is a trophy sport and the prizes are given by raffle as door prizes, I see no need for changing the classification system. It makes no sense. I have trophies and plaques from PPC & IDPA and frankly could care less if I ever get another whether I win it or not. They just take up space and only mean someone better than me did not show up that particular day.

Edited March 19, 2008 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[MichiganShootist]

frankly could care less if I ever get another whether I win it or not. They just take up space and only mean someone better than me did not show up that particular day

Well I understand where you are at Roundgunner.... but the issue in debate here--- is that the IDPA "may" have too few classifications.-----Not that it effects me-- or you----.

(I'm a damn solid 5 gun expert-- and that's the best that I'll ever achieve--- based on my age and physical issues) I can pick a gun out of the safe and win most club and state matches.... but many other shooters concentrate on a division and spend very big bucks trying to advance.

But when the only way shooters are "bucketed" into levels is the classifier... there is a problem when 98.4 second shooters have to pay a lot of money to go to a regional or national event and face 55 second shooters.

I have a lot of IDPA shooter friends who are converting to USPSA... because the IDPA classification "system" isn't working anymore.

Edited March 19, 2008 by MichiganShootist

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

frankly could care less if I ever get another whether I win it or not. They just take up space and only mean someone better than me did not show up that particular day

Well I understand where you are at Roundgunner.... but the issue in debate here--- is that the IDPA "may" have too few classifications.-----Not that it effects me-- or you----.

(I'm a damn solid 5 gun expert-- and that's the best that I'll ever achieve--- based on my age and physical issues) I can pick a gun out of the safe and win most club and state matches.... but many other shooters concentrate on a division and spend very big bucks trying to advance.

But when the only way shooters are "bucketed" into levels is the classifier... there is a problem when 98.4 second shooters have to pay a lot of money to go to a regional or national event and face 55 second shooters.

I have a lot of IDPA shooter friends who are converting to USPSA... because the IDPA classification "system" isn't working anymore.

You have to understand, until this year, I have shot revolver in IDPA, USPSA, ICORE, PPC, Bulls Eye, and steel. I am venturing out into the world of the flat sided bottom feeder this year and hope to make SSP Master arthritis and all at 57 I shot my first SSP classifier this weekend in several years and moved to Expert and was only 18 away from Master so as long as the body holds up I will make it with a little more practice

As for those 98.4 second shooters, I suggest they spend the time and money the 55 second shooters do or be secure in their place in the pecking order. I know I am but I still try.

[HuskySig]

Everyone at a major IDPA has the exact same chance of walking away from the prize table with the top prize. I guess there are a lot of people with egos that need the additional $20 trophy to be satisfied with their placement.

I am not a Master class IDPA shooter, I have been an Expert SSP shooter for almost two years now. The first thing I do when I get the match results is to reorder them from fastest to slowest to see where I placed. I like to see how I faired against the Masters as well as the other Experts. An additional classification isn't going to tell me anything different from what I already know. I need to practice more to see my name closer to the top.

mattk

[Loves2Shoot]

The first thing I do when I get the match results is to reorder them from fastest to slowest to see where I placed. I like to see how I faired against the Masters as well as the other Experts. An additional classification isn't going to tell me anything different from what I already know. I need to practice more to see my name closer to the top.

mattk

That is the best post I've seen in this thread.

[RickB]

Yup, and for the sake of simplicity in determining the parameters of the class, they can call it "USPSA A class and up."

I resemble those remarks. I'm classed 80% in L10, and have never even approached 100 seconds on the IDPA classifier. I've been running shooters through the classifier for seven years, and have never witnessed a score lower than even 80 seconds, and that includes USPSA Ms and GMs. The IDPA classifier is tougher than most people give it credit for.

[Jim Watson]

I used to think there needed to be a high master class to sort out the hotshots, and a professional category to separate the hired guns from those of us who pay for our sport.

But I now look at it like HuskySig. I check the match results to see where I stand in my own division and class and then figure out my overall placement versus everybody.

The Olympics get by with gold, silver, and bronze; horseraces with win, place, and show.

Last year I got a ninth place plaque because of the silly policy of an award to every three entries. I don't value it much. I am not a third grade soccer player where "everybody is a winner."

[Jake Di Vita]

I am not a third grade soccer player where "everybody is a winner."

To be 100% honest, I usually throw away anything that isn't HOA. Although I do keep some losing plaques for the lessons they taught me. I write on them and hang them near the door so I see them whenever I leave.

[Steve J]

No second place winner? How appropriate for gun games. Personally, I've always found it curious how High *-* gets turned into *-* National Champion.

[shred]

I wonder if maybe IDPA intentionally set 'Master' to be relatively easily achievable in order to discourage people from going around saying "I am an IDPA BurgerMeister, worship me and give me big $ sponsorships!"-- if there are ten Masters in town, it's not such a big deal (not that any IPSC GM's I know do that, but it's not common to see "IDPA Master" (or "GSSF Master!") highlighted on a shooting resume without being mixed into a bunch of other qualifications)

[Duane Thomas]

there is a problem when 98.4 second shooters have to pay a lot of money to go to a regional or national event and face 55 second shooters.

Why? Because they can't beat the guy who worked harder?

[Chills1994]

IDPA could just get rid of the classification system entirely, dontchya know?

PS: The last time I checked 73 + 16 does not equal 113 votes. What gives?

Edited March 20, 2008 by Chills1994

[Gregg K]

PS: The last time I checked 73 + 16 does not equal 113 votes. What gives?

I'll take a guess, maybe a null vote just to see the results counts as a vote but not a yes or no.

[Bones]

I have two questions for clarification, if I may:

Can you please rank the voting results by Classification and division? This assumes that all those voting are indeed IDPA members. I ask because I wonder if some are indeed feeling disenfranchised now, or just planning ahead.

Is there a more generous shooting sport for performance awards (i.e. >/= 1/3 population at all performance levels)?

Craig

Edited March 20, 2008 by Bones

[Steve J]

Chills, that's much better than the smilie eating popcorn. No need for words.

[Jake Di Vita]

I feel there should be a copy machine in that picture rather than a horse.

[Shawn Knight]

Chills, that's much better than the smilie eating popcorn. No need for words.

What can I say? I like popcorn.

Besides it is much more fun to watch someone beat a dead horse than to beat it yourself.

[Ted Murphy]

Given the choices in this poll, I chose yes for GM.

However, I do not think this is the best idea. The problem with the GM class (IMHO) is that eventually, many of the people who are tail end charlie in the Master class now, will then win a match somewhere and end up in GM class eventually and suffer the same fate as they are now.

If I can offer up for debate, I propose a "professional class". Professional class shooters are still in the run for division champion, and compete against each other in that class, and in the listing will be listed above master class in terms of difficulty. This class is for shooters who receive compensation from sponsors in excess of a chosen dollar amount. This will pretty much bottle up the super squad shooters and insulate them from the people who have a day job.

I would like to see something like this put in effect, then perhaps reinvestigate the need for a GM class (or whatever term IDPA would choose) after we see this in practice for a season or two.

[rvb]

If I can offer up for debate, I propose a "professional class". Professional class shooters are still in the run for division champion, and compete against each other in that class, and in the listing will be listed above master class in terms of difficulty. This class is for shooters who receive compensation from sponsors in excess of a chosen dollar amount. This will pretty much bottle up the super squad shooters and insulate them from the people who have a day job.

Hi Ted,

While I am also against a new "GM" class, I'm VERY against this idea. I had to think about it a while to figure out why it bothered me and then how to put it into words.

I'll preface my comments by saying that I've never been sponsored and probably never will be. Biggest door prize I've ever won is a holster. I'm a rank and file trigger puller.

I think this idea belittles all that the "advanced" shooters have accomplished. It perpetuates excuses among the rank and file ("I could do that too if I had..."). It perpetuates the myth that you can be good by having $/equip thrown at you instead of the understanding that you have to be very good and competitive to get the backing that well-sponsored and factory shooters have. It also makes it less likely that lower-class shooters will seek or get small sponsorships from the small shops. If there ever would be an "advanced" classification (which I doubt Wilson will ever do), it should be bestowed on people who have earned it through whatever metric is applied, and not be assigned based on something not shooting-related ($).

If a "professional" label were applied, I would think a subcategory like "senior" or "law enforcement" would be sufficient. Although rather than rewarding that subcategory for their shooting, I'm afraid it would become a black eye with people saying things like "I beat so-and-so and they're supposed to be a 'professional.'"

vr,

-rvb

Edited March 21, 2008 by rvb

[et45]

I don't think they need to create a new class just revise the times for the ones they have. The last time I shot an SSP classifier I missed Master by 4 seconds or so.At the time I was a C Production shooter in the low 40% range.

[kdmoore]

If you agree with the current system of classifications, how could you not agree with another classification? It's just an extension of the current system, and is called for by the number of shooters the sport enjoys, and by the fact that we've gotten better at getting better.

For me, the only question involved would be where the classifier time is set? 75 seconds? 70?

If you want to keep it masters from accidentally falling into it via a lucky match win, require more shooters to attend for a match bump.

[HuskySig]

If you could somehow get the total number of current IDPA members and the break down of the highest attained classification no matter the division, my guess would be the total number of Master class shooters would be less than 10%. Now we're arguing about creating another classification for one percent of those shooters? How much sense does that make?

How about we name the new classifications after the shooters who attain them? I guessing on the times, but you'll get the point.

Down to 64 seconds and you're Matt Burkett class

Down to 60 seconds and you're Ernie Langdon class

Down to 55 seconds and you're Dave Sevigny class

There sure it a lot of argument over what amounts $20 worth of trophies and medals.

mattk

[Loves2Shoot]

Matt,

Some people don't want to use logic. In reality is might create a class for a handful of guys.

I went through the major match results for 2007, and there aren't an abundance of Masters in IDPA. If it is so easy to make Master I would think the percentage of Master shooters would be much higher. If IDPA master is so easy to make, then the majority of IDPA shooters are just of a very poor skill level according to the numbers from the match results.

I think if everyone who thinks there should be a GM class did this, then they would see there isn't much more than 10% difference in score when there were multiple masters.