Does IDPA Need A Grand Master Classification ?

[MichiganShootist]

I have shot at enough state, regional, and national IDPA matches to see what I believe is a missing classification in IDPA.

IDPA needs a Grand Master classification.

Many shooters who have worked long and hard to achieve Master level are now forced in the larger matches to shoot against sponsored shooters (some are even full time shooters) because they are "all Masters".... Well they aren't.

I had an opportunity to talk with a couple of the top IDPA/USPSA shooters at a recent national match. When the topic of shooting the classifer came up... one told me that he always shoots it in the low 60s and while the other said... I'm generally in the mid to upper 50s. Folks that is barely half the time required in the divisions under discussion to make Master.

This separation was very clear at the recent IDPA Indoor Nationals.... where very competent Master class shooters were 50% to 70% behind the Super Squad shooters.

Cast your vote and tell me what you think ! ! ! !

Edited March 18, 2008 by MichiganShootist

[Bill Nesbitt]

I voted yes. I can shoot in the 90s and once in a while into the 80s but that is as fast as I will ever be.

[mpolans]

Yup, and for the sake of simplicity in determining the parameters of the class, they can call it "USPSA A class and up."

[tightloop]

Yup, and for the sake of simplicity in determining the parameters of the class, they can call it "USPSA A class and up."

You sure? I doubt many A class shooters can shoot the CDP classifier in the Mid 60's

Best I ever have done is ESP in the low 70s and don't think many A shooters can do that either..

[gunsablazin]

I know several good EX class shooters who don't want to move up to master class because of shooting against "Pros" at the sanctioned matches. I would like to see a GM class in IDPA, it would give the local masters a chance to bring home a trophy.

[MichiganShootist]

This has always been my "take".. but obviously there are many variables

USPSA ------------------------ IDPA

GM ------------------------------ ??

M --------------------------------Low Master to Master

A --------------------------------Expert to Master

B---------------------------------Sharpshooter to Expert

C---------------------------------Marksman to Sharpshooter

D---------------------------------Uncl to Marksman

Edited March 18, 2008 by MichiganShootist

[Joe4d]

I'm a little bit of a grand bagger on the IDPA Classifier but I am only a hair out of Master ESP . And I basically suck so yeh I think we need a higher class.

[rvb]

I started uspsa as an idpa SSP master who had a trophy or two (placed but not yet DC). I went to uspsa and got a B card. ESP Master cutoff times might equate to upper B or A, imo. A good buddy who's solid SSP EX started as C and is now B.

Regardless, I see no need to modify idpa classes except I think ssp ma should be about 10s faster (more even w/ esp).

There's no need for IDPA classes and uspsa classes to align, either, imo. No big deal they are different, so are the games.

-rvb

This has always been my "take".. but obviously there are many variables

USPSA ------------------------ IDPA

GM ------------------------------ ??

M --------------------------------Low Master to Master

A --------------------------------Expert to Master

B---------------------------------Sharpshooter to Expert

C---------------------------------Marksman to Sharpshooter

D---------------------------------Uncl to Marksman

Edited March 18, 2008 by rvb

[JD45]

I've seen a few make IDPA Master class and still be in C or B class USPSA.

[MichiganShootist]

The fact that 90% of the IDPA classifier is just stand and shoot... favors some shooters making it easy for many to be way over classifed. Especially at some clubs where they shoot the classifier as often as every month.

As IDPA stages/matches have become much more difficult/complex over the last 6 - 8 years..... (movers, flash lights, disappearing targets, shooting on the run) etc.... I believe that the classifer doesn't reflect our sport anymore.

That's also why an IDPA expert might struggle to be a C at USPSA..... and why we need a GM in IDPA.

Edited March 18, 2008 by MichiganShootist

[boo radley]

For whatever it's worth, I classified as Master on my first attempt in SSP -- I was a high B in USPSA Production at the time. It's a bit embarrassing -- on the rare occasions I'll shoot at a very large and popular IDPA club in my area, I usually get my butt handed to me.

The classifier limits are out of date, regardless -- CDP tougher time limits than SSP...why? Makes no sense.

A GM class would make sense: achieve it with: and extremely low classifier score, OR top 3 at the Nationals, OR if the shooter has USPSA GM status.

Edited March 18, 2008 by boo radley

[Steve J]

I've seen many IDPA Master class shooters that start in B class and struggle at least for a while to make A Class.

I personally can shoot an Expert IDPA classifier in CDP with no problem and I'm knocking on the door of a Master class time. I'm solidly a B class USPSA shooter with the same gun.

I voted for a GM class.

MichiganShootist's table is pretty close.

[Chills1994]

I voted "yes" to a GM class.

It seems like this thread is a spinoff of the USPSA Pro vs. Amateur thread.

I think those IDPA'ers that have been shooting it long enough to be creeping up on Master class are NOT just going out and shooting the IDPA classifier in so few seconds.

I think they would rather go to a major match win expert in whatever semi-auto division and get the bump to Master. They want a trophy for all their work/troubles up to that point.

Just thinking out loud here....besides IDPA Nat's, are there major sanctioned matches out there that draw enough Masters for one or two of them to get bumped to GM?

This is just my opinion, but I have to chuckle at the paper Masters, the guys who practice the classifier over and over again. I sincerely hope nobody out there is "jonesing" for a GM title bad enough to just be a paper GM.

[Steve J]

I sincerely hope nobody out there is "jonesing" for a GM title bad enough to just be a paper GM.

It happens. The world is all about balance. There are sandbaggers and there are grandbaggers.

[MichiganShootist]

I've met my share of Grandbaggers in the USPSA ranks too. As and Bs who can't beat the avrage C.

I think the guys who over classify (in either sport) they get their butts beat at every match the attend are a hoot. Talk about messed up egos.

BTW--- there are plenty of matches with large enough numbers to get a M bumped up in IDPA... but if they made the rule bumped if you beat 5 in a sanctioned match it would be pretty fair.

[Jake Di Vita]

When I first started USPSA I was already an IDPA Master in 2 divisions. My first classification in Production was C for a short time and then B for something like 2 years.

[rvb]

BTW--- there are plenty of matches with large enough numbers to get a M bumped up in IDPA... but if they made the rule bumped if you beat 5 in a sanctioned match it would be pretty fair.

It's pretty easy to have state/regional matches where there are 5 "average" masters. Before long all your "average" masters will be bumped right back where new class supporters don't want them to be... competing with the "GMs". Then people will be calling them "grandbagger GMs" and the cycle perpetuates. While I'm not in favor of a new class, I would think such hypathetical match bumps should only happen at a National-level match and require scores comprable to the "GMs" ... or via a very difficult time to acheive on the classifier (and require that score to be achieved multiple times in a row, not just one hero-or-zero run).

just my 2c.

-rvb

[Gregg K]

I voted yes but Bill Wilson will never call it Grand Master to keep away from being compared to USPSA.

I guess it could be a Professional class or something

What other names could be used to keep from calling it GM?

[MichiganShootist]

Good point Ryan... there are problem only a hundred or less shooters who would be IDPA GMs

I don't have the answer... but "club shooters" who have shot the SSP classifer at 98.0 once in there life shouldn't be shooting against full time sponsered Pros that shoot the classifer in the mid 50s.

[Chills1994]

Jake DiVita wrote:

When I first started USPSA I was already an IDPA Master in 2 divisions. My first classification in Production was C for a short time and then B for something like 2 years.

I have heard B class is pretty big and hard to get out of too.

I think for the sake of this discussion, in this IDPA shooting and rules sub forum, we are probably better off NOT trying to draw connections in an apple to orange comparison (i.e. USPSA A class = IDPA Master + ).

Somewhere on the IDPA forum, maybe a year or so ago, this was already hashed out, and I don't remember what the final consensus was.

Edited March 18, 2008 by Chills1994

[Matt Cheely]

I don't think you even have to use the reason of shooting against sponsored shooters.

When you can have a IDPA master come over to ISPC and start at B class, or have USPSA GM's come in at half the time on the classifier, there is obviously room for another class.

[Chills1994]

We could just get rid of the IDPA classification system entirely?!

[GmanCdp]

I voted yes but Bill Wilson will never call it Grand Master to keep away from being compared to USPSA.

I guess it could be a Professional class or something

What other names could be used to keep from calling it GM?

FAS =fast azz shooter

SCS= sanctioned[to make valid] class shooter

MGS= master gunnery shooter...you thought i was gonna say sergeant

NMC=national master class :must shoot at least 35% of a master class score and shoot more then 6 state or regionals a year

[rvb]

Good point Ryan... there are problem only a hundred or less shooters who would be IDPA GMs

I don't have the answer... but "club shooters" who have shot the SSP classifer at 98.0 once in there life shouldn't be shooting against full time sponsered Pros that shoot the classifer in the mid 50s.

This is why I think SSP MA times should be ~90s as I don't think esp and ssp times should be -that- different, and to move up should be an ave of the last 3 classifiers or something to prevent the "lucky" bump up. I know that sounds like that other game, but I was of that opinion long before I started playing that other game. I think that would go a long way to "close the gap", especially in ssp. Otherwise at most state/regional matches the current system makes for a pretty ballanced MA match and at Nationals, well... why should people "expect" a trophy unless they can compete? That's really all we're talking about here is adding a trophy to the national level events. It's not like prizes or $ is on the line. IMO it's more fun to come in 25th against "the" competition at a national event than to come in 1st due to an arbitrary line in the sand.

[rvb]

We could just get rid of the IDPA classification system entirely?!

Now we're talking !

I like the classifier as it give's me personal intermediate measurable goals. Other than that...........

-rvb