Amateurs vs. Professionals

[tightloop]

There may be more than one answer for your question, but every new game has a growing period and then hits a plateau...

Hmm...I don't think my question was clear.

OK -- Zhunter wants the top tier of shooters to be able to compete for 'serious' money, for whatever reason. Forget for a moment, where that money comes from.

It seems to me that once a sport/recreation becomes popular enough, the issue, above, takes care of itself. Take fishing for catfish, for example. I'm guessing the first person that caught one didn't think, "Hey! Let me start a Tournament Series." But as smaller tournaments became popular, etc., etc, thus formed "www.uscats.org." Or whatever.

But with practical shooting, as I understand it, that period is already *over* -- the days of making a living wage shooting a pistol, and significant corporate sponsorship have passed. But if -- and this is what I don't know -- the membership, and popularity is still as high, or higher....Why? What changed? Fix that, and you would have $ for a some kind of pro-tour, no?

You may be right Boo, but sometimes it just takes a little push from somewhere to get the ball rolling, even though the idea may have been kicking around in folks minds for a while...You know,with the thoughts of paying bills, sickness, kids, other things that might have intervened...or it might have been just the thought of the whole thing being more than one guy could do by themselves...so he did nothing...whatever the case, seems like the idea has some legs via Phil...so I guess we'll watch that unfold and see how it goes...till then, I don't think much else substantive will happen, but I could be wrong...

[SA Friday]

This is just opinion/speculation, but if you took a look at the history of every sporting event on TV, you would find stages of development. Fledgling steps to another rung with the potential for financial ruin a very real possibility. Then they get TV coverage, and become mass marketable and the possibilities for viable sponsership marketing kicks the money machine in to the mix.

This has the possibility to be the next poker to the USA on TV. This also has the potential to be the next women's pro basketball. It will succeed or fail based on money. Money will be there or not based on mass marketing. I can see Flex's caution because of the risk of failure, but I don't think that failure would be catastrophic to the sport either. There would still be a very solid amature base that would not disappear. IF the marketing took hold, the gain to shooting as a whole would be dynamic. There could be an influx of new shooters like they have seen in the pro poker tournaments (probably not as many, but a hell of a lot more than we are currenty seeing or set-up for). A successful endeavour in something like this could have unforseeable impact, potentially good and bad. I see mostly good, but an abundance of interest into what I perceive as our fairly obscure sport will result in USPSA having to make some changes to compensate.

For example, the simple possibility of a large influx of new shooters into the current systems of club matches could be overwelming in some areas. Secondly, I could forsee a real NEED to cotify a new shooters safety training system US wide if a large influx of new shooters or potentially see unmanageable risk factors. Put 6 or 7 new shooters on every squad at a match, and see how it slows shooting progress, and stresses out regular ROs. Just one iffy new shooter can keep an ROs hands full for a whole match.

Just throwing that out there. I know this is only theoretical, but the possibility of this future could effect ones perspective.

[shred]

But with practical shooting, as I understand it, that period is already *over* -- the days of making a living wage shooting a pistol, and significant corporate sponsorship have passed. But if -- and this is what I don't know -- the membership, and popularity is still as high, or higher....Why? What changed? Fix that, and you would have $ for a some kind of pro-tour, no?

McBane (I think it was him) once said something along the lines of how IPSC used to be the pinnacle of pistol shooting and pistol development (barring bullseye and such).

Back when IPSC was it, if the IPSC shooters used it, and it worked, it was what everybody wanted (that being mostly 1911 .45 ACP tuning and bits). (Mostly because that was all that worked, I suspect)

That is very much not the case now. I suspect it has more to do with the broadening of the general pistol shooting market (IDPA, CCW, etc) and less to do with the narrowing of IPSC.

[grandbagger]

wow, it took me more than an hour to read all the pages in this thread. i think this is a good and viable idea. maybe we need a groundbraking match and a very good coverage for this to kick in. good marketing and tv coverage will get the beer and energy drink companies to help us out.

nice start Z

[OlliesRevenge]

This has the possibility to be the next poker to the USA on TV. This also has the potential to be the next women's pro basketball. It will succeed or fail based on money. Money will be there or not based on mass marketing. I can see Flex's caution because of the risk of failure, but I don't think that failure would be catastrophic to the sport either. There would still be a very solid amature base that would not disappear. IF the marketing took hold, the gain to shooting as a whole would be dynamic. There could be an influx of new shooters like they have seen in the pro poker tournaments (probably not as many, but a hell of a lot more than we are currenty seeing or set-up for).

I love this line of thinking. I've been playing poker as a second living for a several years now, and I have previously done some thinking about how to bring the tournament buy in structure (read: gambling) to USPSA matches. People love to gamble, always have, always will. IMO, adding a gambling element to the USPSA game would do nothing but good things for the sport. The gambling element doesn’t necessarily have to be emphasized or advertised. Pool tournaments that use a buy in and prize payout structure aren’t billed as gambling events (even though they are), and they aren’t usually thought of as such because people understand that billiards is a game of skill.

One of the beautiful things about poker is the fact that amateurs can compete with pros. The reason poker tournaments can operate without handicap is due to the short term luck factor inherent in the game. On any given day, any player can win because the variance of individual outcomes is so high. Bad players can (and do) win big on occasion, and that is what keeps them coming back.

For a sport like USPSA shooting, the luck factor is very low, and I believe running separate tournaments for each class would be the way to go. A handicapping structure could also be used. Thankfully, we already have a very detailed and fairly accurate system in place; the shooter class structure and % rankings that are calculated from classifier scores.

Here are some specific ideas I have on how to start this.

- It could be started at the individual club level, weekly matches and such. Individual matches/tournaments could be promoted by individual clubs. The sponsoring clubs could rake a given % of the tournament buy in total, just like the casino that sponsors a poker tournament (typically around 5%).

- Shooters in a given class could compete with each other within their own class. For example, at a given tournament, B class (or any given class) shooters could compete with each other as an independent tournament.

- In lieu of having enough shooters within each class to compete equally with each other (ex. if only 3 B class Production shooters showed up) a more sophisticated handicapping system could be applied. There are two ways to do this:

1) The buy in amounts could be altered for each shooter so that the top shooters in a division would essentially be laying odds. Say the top ranked Production shooter at the match is an 'A' with a 79.4% average and the next highest ranked shooter in Production is a B with a 65.2% average. Assume a top buy in amount of $50.00. The 79.4% shooter buys in for the full $50, and the 65.20% shooter would buy in for $41.05 = (.652 / .794) * $50, or some rounded off amount (say to the nearest $5.00 increment)

Or…

2) Each shooter’s final Match Point score could be weighted up by a factor commensurate to where they stand in relation to the top shooter. We would first divide the top shooter's % by the % rankings of all other shooters, giving each shooter in the match a "weighting factor". Taking numbers from the above example; .794 / .652 = 1.2178. This would be the 65.2% 'B' shooter's "factor". You then just multiply his final Match Point score by this number to come up with his Adjusted Match Score. All Adjusted Match Scores would be sorted from high to low after the shooting and then prizes paid out to the top x # of shooters. Ex. 10 total shooters – Payout the top 3 spots; 1st = 50%, 2nd = 30%, 3rd = 20%. Naturally the more shooters the greater the number of top spots that will be paid

-One of the things that would need to be addressed in this tournament system is sandbagging. IMO the way to do this is to increase the number of classifiers in each match to at least 2. This would make it very difficult to score high overall in the match (and collect prize money) while at the same time sandbagging the classifier(s) to keep your ranking low.

Just a few ideas, take care.

[timamal]

My two cents worth Most of the top shooters in this sport have jobs teaching military or police . The money you are talking about will not be worth there time. I would not pay a match fee of 40 dollars. The cost of this sport is getting out of hand . Primers brass and bullets.. Not to mention gas.. Let bring more new people in. Not try to bring this into a pro sport. No major tv network would every pick up the tv rights The outdoor channel does not count. The channel on my cable network is so down its takes me ten mintues to find it

Edited May 2, 2008 by timamal

[rgkeller]

If someone wants to set up a pro handgun shooting sport and tour, go to it.

Just leave the USPSA out of it.

[timamal]

Great Words RG

[benos]

I just don't like anything that (in my opinion) dilutes the competition.

+1.

Don't be deluded. (Maku mozo!)

Or, don't be diluted.

[Jaxshooter]

Check out the classified ads after a big shoot and see how many guns and other prize table items are for sale by the big name shooters. They don't keep what they win, they turn it into cash usually.

I shoot flyers 5-6 times a year. The average entry fees for the weekend are between $2000 and $3500 plus additional money for the calcutta. I can assure you if it was not a cash pay back I would not shoot for prizes on a table. There are a few places close to me where you can practice. The cost is $15.00-$20.00 for 5 birds. A little more expensive than practice ammo.

[tightloop]

Check out the classified ads after a big shoot and see how many guns and other prize table items are for sale by the big name shooters. They don't keep what they win, they turn it into cash usually.

I shoot flyers 5-6 times a year. The average entry fees for the weekend are between $2000 and $3500 plus additional money for the calcutta. I can assure you if it was not a cash pay back I would not shoot for prizes on a table. There are a few places close to me where you can practice. The cost is $15.00-$20.00 for 5 birds. A little more expensive than practice ammo.

Handthrown birds are where the real $$ is, but it is an expensive game to learn, especially on your own dime...Small country shoots are not as expensive as the ones you go to, but the payout ratio is usually about the same and you don';t have to face the real sharks that inhabit the big shoots...

Like you, I do several a year...I enjoy the competition, the atmosphere, the money and for the most part, the shooters.

Pro shooting will never rival the NBA or the NFL no matter what the venue, but for us shooters, it certainly would be fun to watch if you weren't shooting in it...

[Jaxshooter]

You live out hwere they hand throw birds still. The last time I shot hand thrown birds was in Texas. Shot several shoots at the Dallas Gun Club, always a first class shoot.

We can't get anyone in my area that will hand throw birds anymore. All shoots around here are boxed birds. If I had to pick only one shooting sport to participate in there is no question it would be flyers.

[Vagus]

Add me as a fan of the idea Z.

I am a little flabbergasted at some of the counterarguments here. The idea is so elegant and simple I am struggling to put it into any other terms that might persuade anyone that still disagrees.

I think there where a few sticking points that people couldn't get over.

Defining Pro vs Amateur isn't all that necessary. The grand baggers and sand baggers need not to worry, a pro match just has a set buy in amount with the change to win some money.

Show me the money... I think the problem here is some sort of expectation is that there needs to be an over night "Masters™" of USPSA. It would work just like any other sport that has a pro series has done, and start small and locally.

What I am going to push for sometime this sumer is a local money match. Maybe something like this - One division, reasonably high buy in say ~ $100 with a reasonable estimate of 50 people participating Comes out to $5000. Off the bat, the club should get 10% leaving $4500 to be divided up on 5 stages. $900 in prize money per stage can be broken down just about anyway, and I would think having about half the field get something would be nice. Off the top of my head ( because exponential subtraction is hard to do for me)

1st $150 2nd $125 3rd $100 4th $75 5th $50 6-16th get $25 . So if you finish 16th on all five stages you make $25 over your fee.. Finish 1st all five - $750 is yours.

You string a few of these small local money matches together in a region and you have a mini tour ( even here in the middle of nowhere there are better than 6 clubs within a half days drive ) Get these clubs together and throw some of the pot towards a points system... Take a few of the better mini tours and open it up... blah blah blah.. thats how it grows.

I believe having the chance to win some money will bring out more people and invite stiffer competition.. and that isn't a guess or opinion - you can look at countless other sports that have done it to see it is a working model that needs just a few people to mold it to fit shooting sports.

It is little steps towards a bigger picture. If it builds momentum and was worthwhile enough for the first few years to a whole generation of pros to pay into higher money matches that will prove worthiness to big sponsors and TV.

I just don't think this is this is analogous to a "show me the money" spreadsheet of profits and gains with expectations to make it worth of a big all or nothing start up investment with a large capital mass to get the ball made and rolling.. Rather it a boot-strap start up thing where the ball is just that tiny flake rolling down the hill.

The first step is a put up or shut up type deal.. a few local clubs just have to give it a try.

* I think the 5-10% club take will also do wonders for improving the grounds and equipment at the club level, etc.

[shred]

What I am going to push for sometime this sumer is a local money match. Maybe something like this - One division, reasonably high buy in say ~ $100 with a reasonable estimate of 50 people participating Comes out to $5000. Off the bat, the club should get 10% leaving $4500 to be divided up on 5 stages.

The first step is a put up or shut up type deal.. a few local clubs just have to give it a try.

* I think the 5-10% club take will also do wonders for improving the grounds and equipment at the club level, etc.

$500 won't even put ROs on the ground at a major match, let alone paper, and all the rest. At any range around here, it wouldn't even cover the range fee for 100 shooters.

Color me skeptical because I was involved with the very first (and to date, only) "Cash Blast" match that was intended to kick off something like this.

it didn't.

[Vagus]

What I am going to push for sometime this sumer is a local money match. Maybe something like this - One division, reasonably high buy in say ~ $100 with a reasonable estimate of 50 people participating Comes out to $5000. Off the bat, the club should get 10% leaving $4500 to be divided up on 5 stages.

The first step is a put up or shut up type deal.. a few local clubs just have to give it a try.

* I think the 5-10% club take will also do wonders for improving the grounds and equipment at the club level, etc.

$500 won't even put ROs on the ground at a major match, let alone paper, and all the rest. At any range around here, it wouldn't even cover the range fee for 100 shooters.

Color me skeptical because I was involved with the very first (and to date, only) "Cash Blast" match that was intended to kick off something like this.

it didn't.

Wow.... The small match, 5 stage, 50 shooters went right over didn't it?

Maybe we are lucky around here, but we get by on $10 match $1 re-shoots every month.. That is why I picked 10% of $100

[shred]

What I am going to push for sometime this sumer is a local money match. Maybe something like this - One division, reasonably high buy in say ~ $100 with a reasonable estimate of 50 people participating Comes out to $5000. Off the bat, the club should get 10% leaving $4500 to be divided up on 5 stages.

The first step is a put up or shut up type deal.. a few local clubs just have to give it a try.

* I think the 5-10% club take will also do wonders for improving the grounds and equipment at the club level, etc.

$500 won't even put ROs on the ground at a major match, let alone paper, and all the rest. At any range around here, it wouldn't even cover the range fee for 100 shooters.

Color me skeptical because I was involved with the very first (and to date, only) "Cash Blast" match that was intended to kick off something like this.

it didn't.

Wow.... The small match, 5 stage, 50 shooters went right over didn't it?

Maybe we are lucky around here, but we get by on $10 match $1 re-shoots every month.. That is why I picked 10% of $100

Y'all must own your own range then. No clubs near here do. Range fees for one-day club matches vary from $3-$10 per shooter, most in the $5-7 range. Throw in for targets and USPSA mission count, and the cost-per-shooter runs close to $10 a head.

The biggest hurdle the Cash Blast ran into was the only way to make the money worth it was to have everybody shoot the same division, no classes and see how it goes... Nearly everybody local decided not to pony up the $ once they found out a few of the top guys were coming and classes weren't being paid back, so the MD had to add a 'no-payback, reduced entry fee' option to get more than a dozen shooters.

I think USSA has a good shot at getting something going with the Pro-Am, it'll be interesting to see how many 'pros' sign up.

[Morphire]

Maybe...for lack of a better term...shooters are smart enough to do the math and aren't caught up with how big their nut sack is.

Just for clarity. I am caught up with how big my nut sack is.

[Charles Bond]

What I am going to push for sometime this sumer is a local money match. Maybe something like this - One division, reasonably high buy in say ~ $100 with a reasonable estimate of 50 people participating Comes out to $5000. Off the bat, the club should get 10% leaving $4500 to be divided up on 5 stages.

The first step is a put up or shut up type deal.. a few local clubs just have to give it a try.

* I think the 5-10% club take will also do wonders for improving the grounds and equipment at the club level, etc.

$500 won't even put ROs on the ground at a major match, let alone paper, and all the rest. At any range around here, it wouldn't even cover the range fee for 100 shooters.

Color me skeptical because I was involved with the very first (and to date, only) "Cash Blast" match that was intended to kick off something like this.

it didn't.

Wow.... The small match, 5 stage, 50 shooters went right over didn't it?

Maybe we are lucky around here, but we get by on $10 match $1 re-shoots every month.. That is why I picked 10% of $100

Y'all must own your own range then. No clubs near here do. Range fees for one-day club matches vary from $3-$10 per shooter, most in the $5-7 range. Throw in for targets and USPSA mission count, and the cost-per-shooter runs close to $10 a head.

The biggest hurdle the Cash Blast ran into was the only way to make the money worth it was to have everybody shoot the same division, no classes and see how it goes... Nearly everybody local decided not to pony up the $ once they found out a few of the top guys were coming and classes weren't being paid back, so the MD had to add a 'no-payback, reduced entry fee' option to get more than a dozen shooters.

I think USSA has a good shot at getting something going with the Pro-Am, it'll be interesting to see how many 'pros' sign up.

Actually there is another option. You run the regular run of the mill local, section, regional or area match. You charge the regular entry fee. You then add a "cash option" which allows those who want to shoot for a money prize to do so. In the case that started the discussion if you had 50 shooters elect in then you would have the regular fees to fund the match and the extra $5000 to reward those who paid the extra match fee. And just to keep things really fun and the stage reward meaningful, just have 5 stages that count for the money. Maybe the match is 10 stages and maybe it is 8. Just have the payback apply to 5 so you could get a real mix of stages long, medium, short, lots of movement and little movement, all steel and all paper. I would also require that if there were not a least a dozen shooters elect the cash option, or another number depending on the size of the match, I would refund all the cash option money to the shooters.

If you really like this idea as an add on, let me know and we can possibly try it at Area 6 next year. I really do have to note however that this is what we tried to do with the points series championship and USPSA was certainly underwhelmed with member enrollment even though it was a bargain compared to what is being discsussed here. I am going to want to see broad support for this type of event before we add it to our present match structure.

Charles Bond

Edited May 16, 2008 by Charles Bond

[Charles Bond]

If you really like this idea as an add on, let me know and we can possibly try it at Area 6 next year. I really do have to note however that this is what we tried to do with the points series championship and USPSA was certainly underwhelmed with member enrollment even though it was a bargain compared to what is being discsussed here. I am going to want to see broad support for this type of event before we add it to our present match structure.

Charles Bond

Still waiting for the member interest to add this to area 6 next year.

Charles Bond

[JKSNIPER]

I think others have already said it but here it is again.

If you want the big money you need the big sponsorship companies and the little ones too.

You need Bass Pro, all the firearms makers, ammo companies, t-shirt and hat, holster and timer companies on board.

You need the TV commitment to get them on board.

Anyone here hooked up with TV connections?

Sorry but the RO staff and such should be volunteer.

Otherwise you're paying out your prize money to fund your RO staff.

Get the guys to do it for freebies donates by the smaller companies.

JK

[WDB]

If you really like this idea as an add on, let me know and we can possibly try it at Area 6 next year. I really do have to note however that this is what we tried to do with the points series championship and USPSA was certainly underwhelmed with member enrollment even though it was a bargain compared to what is being discsussed here. I am going to want to see broad support for this type of event before we add it to our present match structure.

Charles Bond

Still waiting for the member interest to add this to area 6 next year.

Charles Bond

I'd be for it. Some matches pay the RO's, let them shoot for free, give them stuff or help pay for hotel or a combination of the above. I have a feeling the next few years are going to get really hard with the price of gas and shooting components on the rise with no end in sight. My personal take on it is this, I do this for fun, I could care less about cash payback, I just need to be able to afford to get there and shoot. Shooting for free or at a reduced rate is enough incentive for me to RO, as I did this year and will do again next year. I personally don't see how match prices over $100 will be easily supported (or justified) in the future. You want to shoot for money? You know what they say, "You wanna play, you gotta pay."

[Charles Bond]

Sorry but the RO staff and such should be volunteer.

Otherwise you're paying out your prize money to fund your RO staff.

So if I understand you correctly, we should expect our RO staff to pay $4.00 a gallon for gas to come from all over the southeast, pay to shoot the match or not pay to shoot the match if they can not come on Friday, pay for all their own meals, pay for their own hotel, bring their own shirts, not have a prize table, and they would do all of this so they could work 8 hours or more a day for two or three days? If you have any idea where we can find enough range staff to work under these terms to run 400 shooters, let me know since even John Amidon has yet to locate them for the nationals.

[rgkeller]

Maybe the "professionals" will give the ROs autographs.

[moverfive]

So if I understand you correctly, we should expect our RO staff to pay $4.00 a gallon for gas to come from all over the southeast, pay to shoot the match or not pay to shoot the match if they can not come on Friday, pay for all their own meals, pay for their own hotel, bring their own shirts, not have a prize table, and they would do all of this so they could work 8 hours or more a day for two or three days? If you have any idea where we can find enough range staff to work under these terms to run 400 shooters, let me know since even John Amidon has yet to locate them for the nationals.

.....if it weren't for the fact that I would have to bring my own shirts, this arrangement sounds like a SWEET deal!

[Joe4d]

Something was brought up in another thread that I think applies here. The vast majority of American have never fired a handgun or have only fired one once or twice, they have no idea how much skill, training, and practice it takes just to get an average C class run. They watch pistols fired on TV and assume that's the way it is so anyone could pick one up and hit with it. There is no understanding. Now those same Americans have thrown a football, taken a foul shot, hit a golf ball, tried to hit a baseball or softball and have a very good understanding and apreciation of watching an expert. Watching a USPSA Grand master would elicit yawns from the general public. Pro sports money comes from TV, advertising and sponsors something you just wont ever get with handgun sports.