Amateurs vs. Professionals

[Bob Hostetter]

The USPSA Points Series was a bust for a couple of reasons and never had a chance to work.

First of all, it was weighted towards the Nationals which is a match that it was possible not to even get into. Second it required a fair amount of traveling just to get enough of the right kind of matches in to have a chance at getting enough points which drove the expense up. And finally if you did spend the money, and put in the time to shoot all the matches, you had a chance of winning less then the cost of a single match. You could come closer to breaking even if you selected your matches based on prize tables then shooting for the Point Series.

It appeared that the whole point behind the Point Series was to get people to shoot more matches benefiting USPSA then to create a new competitive venue with rewards for the shooters. That's fine but don't condem the concept of a Pro circuit based on the lack of success of the Point Series. It was poorly designed, poorly supported, and doomed to failure from the start.

[Flexmoney]

I certainly wasn't, Bob. There are similarites, however.

All the travel costs are there. The training cost would be higher, because you'd have to be ultra-competitve. The fee is more. The pay-outs...would have to have some mass behind them to get somebody to "break-even". And then...they'd be living in a van down by the river.

How much could a shooter win...how much would it cost in expenses?

[Flexmoney]

...both J and I believe there is a core group of shooters who are willing to chance making some $$ doing something they like and are good at...

Who ?

...who would be willing to lay down 500 of their own bucks for a chance at over 10 X that amount...

I think Jay used the figure of $6,000 for first place earlier? (based on 35 shooters @ $500)

What are the odds of finishing in the money...say 10 times. Maybe averaging $3,000 per money finish. That sounds like it would be a really good showing. And, that would bring in $30,000 for the year. Do you think it's fair to say $2,000 a match in expenses? 12 matches...that would be $24,000 in expenses. Leaving $6,000 for living, training, food, shelter and clothes. (probably wouldn't be much to worry about in taxes)

To bring in that much in prize money...would probably take somebody of Smitty's skill level (who places well and wins some big matches against real good competition).

I dunno...it might work. I still think you need mass. I don't know where it would come from yet. I still don't think we get there through self funding.

I've had some ideas that would piggy-back shooting matches on top of some other events. That could supplement the pot. Hmmmmm...

[warpspeed]

Wow - 2 days and 11 pages later.

My 2 cents : I do not think that the USPSA is the organization that should be promoting "professional" shooters.

[Chills1994]

rgkeller back on page 9 wrote:

The USPSA is a MEMBERS organization whose mission is to enhance shooting opportunties for MEMBERS.

Running a pro shooting circuit is not its mission.

Hey, if we can vote for whoever to be USPSA president, then surely the membership can also vote on this.

Then again, I don't ever remember getting asked for my vote, let alone opinion when Sedro Wooley bought the Steel Challenge.

Not that, that was a bad thing. And I'm hoping it will be very beneficial to both sports.

(slight thread drift ahead)

I didn't know there was so much money in shooting clay targets. (Anybody know any trap or skeet coaches in St. Louis area? wink wink)

I do NOT ever recall seeing one trap or skeet tournament on TV, so where is all this money coming from?

Maybe it's the money, maybe it's bragging rights, I dunno, but Sparta, IL (some 30 miles away from me) is the home of the American Trapshooting Association's The Grand and it brings in thousands of trapshooters every summer.

Cha ching$$

(drift off)

I'm sure USPSA HQ is going to keep a real close eye on how Phil Strader's Pro-Am match is going to do this summer.

Ya just never know, that might be the birthplace of this new Pro-Am tour/circuit.

I don't know if Phil is watching this thread or not, but I am wondering if they have thought about adding timer display boards like they do at Piru, CA. I mean if we are going to make this spectator/TV friendly we could have a camera focused on the timer display board all the time. That could further aide any commentator talk: "Phil had a 1.35 second draw with consistent .24 splits, and finished up with a 12.34 second run for that stage."

Edited March 18, 2008 by Chills1994

[tightloop]

...both J and I believe there is a core group of shooters who are willing to chance making some $$ doing something they like and are good at...

Who ?

...who would be willing to lay down 500 of their own bucks for a chance at over 10 X that amount...

I think Jay used the figure of $6,000 for first place earlier? (based on 35 shooters @ $500)

What are the odds of finishing in the money...say 10 times. Maybe averaging $3,000 per money finish. That sounds like it would be a really good showing. And, that would bring in $30,000 for the year. Do you think it's fair to say $2,000 a match in expenses? 12 matches...that would be $24,000 in expenses. Leaving $6,000 for living, training, food, shelter and clothes. (probably wouldn't be much to worry about in taxes)

To bring in that much in prize money...would probably take somebody of Smitty's skill level (who places well and wins some big matches against real good competition).

I dunno...it might work. I still think you need mass. I don't know where it would come from yet. I still don't think we get there through self funding.

I've had some ideas that would piggy-back shooting matches on top of some other events. That could supplement the pot. Hmmmmm...

You are letting your personal status bias your thoughts...just because you have a house/truck/significant other and don't want to throw down 500 bucks to see if you can beat Dave S more than he can beat you, does not mean there are not 25 or more shooters out there that want to find out if they can do it.

You are either an accountant by occupation or are the most cautious person I have ever addressed...do you, who happens to have a GM card in his wallet, think that you can shoot on a par with anyone across the country? Think you could beat them 3 out of 10 times? Place in the top 5 the rest of the time? If so, then you might make some money...if you think NOT to any or all of the above, then it isn't for you....You can't just shout Show Me the Money like they do in the movies...You have to step out and chance it, at least the first time...if you get crushed, go home and fagedhaboudit. As I said before...this isn't the NFL where you get a BIG signing bonus..you don't perform...you don't get paid...simple, but if competitiveness really drives you and you think you could be the best...give it a shot...Also telling you that I don't see most top shooters trying this...I think they are too comfortable with the status quo to embark on something new and unproven...but I do think there are shooters out there that want to have something like this and could use a forum like ProShooter to lay claim that they were as good or better than the guys not shooting but who might be classed higher than they were...maybe an ego thing....and again, as I said, when it is your own money making up the pot, the guys who win the matches now, might not be the ones winning...having some skin in the game changes the way people perform....

[ipscbob]

...both J and I believe there is a core group of shooters who are willing to chance making some $$ doing something they like and are good at...

Who ?

...who would be willing to lay down 500 of their own bucks for a chance at over 10 X that amount...

I think Jay used the figure of $6,000 for first place earlier? (based on 35 shooters @ $500)

What are the odds of finishing in the money...say 10 times. Maybe averaging $3,000 per money finish. That sounds like it would be a really good showing. And, that would bring in $30,000 for the year. Do you think it's fair to say $2,000 a match in expenses? 12 matches...that would be $24,000 in expenses. Leaving $6,000 for living, training, food, shelter and clothes. (probably wouldn't be much to worry about in taxes)

To bring in that much in prize money...would probably take somebody of Smitty's skill level (who places well and wins some big matches against real good competition).

I dunno...it might work. I still think you need mass. I don't know where it would come from yet. I still don't think we get there through self funding.

I've had some ideas that would piggy-back shooting matches on top of some other events. That could supplement the pot. Hmmmmm...

You are letting your personal status bias your thoughts...just because you have a house/truck/significant other and don't want to throw down 500 bucks to see if you can beat Dave S more than he can beat you, does not mean there are not 25 or more shooters out there that want to find out if they can do it.

You are either an accountant by occupation or are the most cautious person I have ever addressed...do you, who happens to have a GM card in his wallet, think that you can shoot on a par with anyone across the country? Think you could beat them 3 out of 10 times? Place in the top 5 the rest of the time? If so, then you might make some money...if you think NOT to any or all of the above, then it isn't for you....You can't just shout Show Me the Money like they do in the movies...You have to step out and chance it, at least the first time...if you get crushed, go home and fagedhaboudit. As I said before...this isn't the NFL where you get a BIG signing bonus..you don't perform...you don't get paid...simple, but if competitiveness really drives you and you think you could be the best...give it a shot...Also telling you that I don't see most top shooters trying this...I think they are too comfortable with the status quo to embark on something new and unproven...but I do think there are shooters out there that want to have something like this and could use a forum like ProShooter to lay claim that they were as good or better than the guys not shooting but who might be classed higher than they were...maybe an ego thing....and again, as I said, when it is your own money making up the pot, the guys who win the matches now, might not be the ones winning...having some skin in the game changes the way people perform....

Quite a mouthful for someone who hasn't participated in the sport for more than 20 years

[zhunter]

Quite a mouthful for someone who hasn't participated in the sport for more than 20 years

Who has not participated in 20 years?

Tightloop stopped in I believe 1986, and returned to USPSA/IPSC in 1995, so IF you are referring to Tightloop, I hope I have corrected your error. IF you are referring to someone else, to whom are you referring to?

Edited to add: I have only been shooting since January of 2005, does that limit my input? I see this as a chance to be innovative. At some point, someone had to take a chance and experiment with fire. Some good things came about directly due to that experimentation. At one time in the more recent past, it was commonly thought that our very own earth was flat. That was taken as gospel, that was dispelled too. I have spent the majority of my adult life in Europe, that majority of that time in England. And I can tell you that one of the most aggravating things in my life, past and present, is the rearward thinking of so many people. What is rearward thinking? In a nut shell, it is a non-progressive mentality that inhibits progressive ideas and change. I ahve seen a lot of that in these 11 pages. Why is it so easy to say, that won't work, PERIOD? Why is an individuals comfort level so restricting? Isn't the allure of the Tiger Woods of the world, in whatever form or arena they present themselves, so interesting, is that they are not afraid to think outside the box? Many years ago Tiger stepped up and said he wanted to break Jack Nicklaus' record of 18 major championship victories. No one before him was so bold.

IF you don't think it, it will not happen. If you don't try it, it will not happen. What, in my opinion, is the biggest limiting factor in human behavior? Fear of failure. You see, the fear of failure often stifles not only the possibility of success, but more often than not, the act of attempting the endeavor at all. I can not take credit for the fear of failure line of thinking. My father, who is and has been the single most important influence on my life, used this as a line of thinking when I was just a boy.

This has not been directed towards anyone, neither individual or group of individuals, but rather as a chance to think about what limits us as individuals in our lives, both past and present, whether it be shooting related or not.

Edited #2 is to apologize for the thread drift

Edited March 18, 2008 by zhunter

[tightloop]

...both J and I believe there is a core group of shooters who are willing to chance making some $$ doing something they like and are good at...

Who ?

...who would be willing to lay down 500 of their own bucks for a chance at over 10 X that amount...

I think Jay used the figure of $6,000 for first place earlier? (based on 35 shooters @ $500)

What are the odds of finishing in the money...say 10 times. Maybe averaging $3,000 per money finish. That sounds like it would be a really good showing. And, that would bring in $30,000 for the year. Do you think it's fair to say $2,000 a match in expenses? 12 matches...that would be $24,000 in expenses. Leaving $6,000 for living, training, food, shelter and clothes. (probably wouldn't be much to worry about in taxes)

To bring in that much in prize money...would probably take somebody of Smitty's skill level (who places well and wins some big matches against real good competition).

I dunno...it might work. I still think you need mass. I don't know where it would come from yet. I still don't think we get there through self funding.

I've had some ideas that would piggy-back shooting matches on top of some other events. That could supplement the pot. Hmmmmm...

You are letting your personal status bias your thoughts...just because you have a house/truck/significant other and don't want to throw down 500 bucks to see if you can beat Dave S more than he can beat you, does not mean there are not 25 or more shooters out there that want to find out if they can do it.

You are either an accountant by occupation or are the most cautious person I have ever addressed...do you, who happens to have a GM card in his wallet, think that you can shoot on a par with anyone across the country? Think you could beat them 3 out of 10 times? Place in the top 5 the rest of the time? If so, then you might make some money...if you think NOT to any or all of the above, then it isn't for you....You can't just shout Show Me the Money like they do in the movies...You have to step out and chance it, at least the first time...if you get crushed, go home and fagedhaboudit. As I said before...this isn't the NFL where you get a BIG signing bonus..you don't perform...you don't get paid...simple, but if competitiveness really drives you and you think you could be the best...give it a shot...Also telling you that I don't see most top shooters trying this...I think they are too comfortable with the status quo to embark on something new and unproven...but I do think there are shooters out there that want to have something like this and could use a forum like ProShooter to lay claim that they were as good or better than the guys not shooting but who might be classed higher than they were...maybe an ego thing....and again, as I said, when it is your own money making up the pot, the guys who win the matches now, might not be the ones winning...having some skin in the game changes the way people perform....

Quite a mouthful for someone who hasn't participated in the sport for more than 20 years

Hey Sport, I would be willing to compare shooting resumes with you anytime...PM me if you want to get personal...

[Flexmoney]

Thanks for the lesson.

I'll be waiting on that math.

[tightloop]

Thanks for the lesson.

I'll be waiting on that math.

[zhunter]

Thanks for the lesson.

I'll be waiting on that math.

Flex

Listen, I have tried, and so has TL, to explain how this works. Someone has to be the innovator, someone has to be a leader, someone has to take a leap of faith to see if an idea might work. IF not for people willing to take chances, where would we as a society be today? Certainly NOT where we are today. I can't tell you the number of people that tried to point out to me as a boy, and then as young man how I was going to fail at playing professional golf. Yes, their line of thinking certainly was on the side of the law of averages, but I persevered against those odds. Did everyone succeed, no, but I had the self belief to try it, and 15 years later, retired on my own terms. But I did it. I lived the dream.

There were NO guarantees in life. There won't be any guarantees in a start up as I proposed. Flex, it would take an incredible self belief to undertake being a professional in any sport, much less in a new sport without outside funding.

I think that this might not be for you, based on your seeking guarantees to get started.

[rgkeller]

Someone has to be the innovator, someone has to be a leader, someone has to take a leap of faith to see if an idea might work.

So, you are going to start this tour?

[zhunter]

Someone has to be the innovator, someone has to be a leader, someone has to take a leap of faith to see if an idea might work.

So, you are going to start this tour?

No, I certainly don't have the time. I hope that Phil Strader's USSA 2008 Pro-Am might be the "Liberty Mutual Legends of Golf" that kicks it off, as the aforementioned tournament did for what is known the Champions Tour.

Why don't I do it? Several reasons, 1) I am out of the country working about 25 weeks a year. 2) I am a full-time single father of 2 when I am home. 3) Both children extremely active in their respective sports, my son is presently playing on 3 baseball teams, Middle school, travel, and Rec League which is required in the spring to participate in travel ball. 4) My daughter is a 13 year old with aspirations of a professional tennis career. So, I am rather busy, maybe more so when I am at home.

In post #262, I stated that I retired form professional golf on my own terms, and that was to spend more time with my children. The organizing/running of a fledgeling tour would not allow me to spend the time with my kids I desire.

Would I be willing to be an unpaid advisor when someone undertakes the endeavor I have put forth, sure. I have neither the industry contacts, or knowledge to start this tour as you put it.

Edited March 18, 2008 by zhunter

[Flexmoney]

I think that this might not be for you, based on your seeking guarantees to get started.

Think what you will.

I'm not looking for guarantees. There is a huge difference between risk-aversion and risk-management. I'm not posting and asking for numbers based on me and what I would do, I am asking how the system can work.

[zhunter]

The system that I proposed is based on The Gateway Golf Tour

Here is some History

They presently have some Sponsors

HERE are the nuts and bolts of the funding

That is what I based my premise on. It is a proven system, NO Television, NO spectators, MINIMAL sponsorship.

Plain and simple, it works.

There, there is the money

Edited to add: The homepage link was posted yesterday, but apparently you did not check it out

Edited March 18, 2008 by zhunter

[Bubber]

I have been debating with myself whether to add a comment here or not, I lost the argument so here goes. The Pro Am that Phil Strader and USSA will be hosting is something that is audience freindly. You can see what the score is as it goes along. You hit 12 plates and the other guy gets 11, you win. period. That would help in the TV aspect. The One tie all tie venue and the money carries to the next stage makes it a little more intrigueing. The Pro Am Event would lend itself to the side bets with the competitors well and also lend itself to the Calcutta wagering as done it Trap. In USPSA it is harder to folow on what is great. I have been shooting this type of game since it was called Combat or Police Combat. But I am sorry, unless one of my freinds is shooting a stage I don't care to watch someone else shoot it. One or two stages of different people shooting is enough for me. But that is not to say that the Pro aspect will not work in USPSA Others may well like to watch experts in their field competiting in IPSC style matches. My 2 cents (Tax included)

[Flexmoney]

Bubber,

We probably have two different things being brought up here (well, more than that, after 14 pages).

What Zhunter is putting out there wouldn't require an audience, nor sponsors.

You are right on about the USSA match being extra special when it comes to being spectator friendly. It ought to play well.

[zhunter]

Bubber,

We probably have two different things being brought up here (well, more than that, after 14 pages).

What Zhunter is putting out there wouldn't require an audience, nor sponsors.

You are right on about the USSA match being extra special when it comes to being spectator friendly. It ought to play well.

The USSA format is user/spectator friendly, and THAT is a huge bonus. I do think, having had lots of time the past two days, and many of you have given me some very good things to think about, and have allowed me to figure out some things that I had not thought of previously. I think that a visual, as per Phil's USSA Pro Am is the way to go, no two ways about it!!! I think he is way ahead of the curve!!!! I think Phil might be an innovator, and I am glad to see it.

But, you are correct, my idea would not need anything beyond participants in the beginning, WHEN it gets going, I do feel there would be some sponsorship appear. I am not even remotely able to guess to what level the sponsorship might reach.

When you think about the money spent on shooting/hunting in our country, it seems like a Shooting Channel would be viable. But the events would have to be visual/audible, like the USSA 2008 Pro Am. If you had events like that, and throw in some gun related shows, i.e. gunsmithing, and then some instruction for competition, it could be a winner. There are lots of related companies to advertise on a channel like that.

Edited March 18, 2008 by zhunter

[GentlemanJim]

Well Mr Z...lets find out how this works

Care to Challange me to the pro am match?

Jim

[zhunter]

Well Mr Z...lets find out how this works

Care to Challange me to the pro am match?

Jim

It works in my schedule!!!

I have been contemplating entering since Smitty made me aware of this match.

If it works for you, it works for me!!! Let's do it!

I would do it with my limited gun, it is not a single stack endeavor.

[Nemo]

Well Mr Z...lets find out how this works

Care to Challange me to the pro am match?

Jim

What took you so long?

[GentlemanJim]

Now Now Now

i will be shootin SS...dont have a limited gun

Its gotta be 45....you know the one....you have seen it before

Jim

[zhunter]

Now Now Now

i will be shootin SS...dont have a limited gun

Its gotta be 45....you know the one....you have seen it before

Jim

Let's take this somewhere else, this is hijacking this thread. I will post it in about 1 minute

[boo radley]

There may be more than one answer for your question, but every new game has a growing period and then hits a plateau...

Hmm...I don't think my question was clear.

OK -- Zhunter wants the top tier of shooters to be able to compete for 'serious' money, for whatever reason. Forget for a moment, where that money comes from.

It seems to me that once a sport/recreation becomes popular enough, the issue, above, takes care of itself. Take fishing for catfish, for example. I'm guessing the first person that caught one didn't think, "Hey! Let me start a Tournament Series." But as smaller tournaments became popular, etc., etc, thus formed "www.uscats.org." Or whatever.

But with practical shooting, as I understand it, that period is already *over* -- the days of making a living wage shooting a pistol, and significant corporate sponsorship have passed. But if -- and this is what I don't know -- the membership, and popularity is still as high, or higher....Why? What changed? Fix that, and you would have $ for a some kind of pro-tour, no?