Florida Open 2008 recap & opinions

[L9X25]

I would like to solicit comments and opinions from those that participated in the 2008 Florida Open, and those that have been here in the past, but chose not to come in 2008.

While I am not ‘officially” a part of the match, I was involved in the process of convincing Frank to make many of the changes that have been instituted over the past year or two.

I helped to convince him (with your help) that the half-day schedule was a good idea. All of the folks that I spoke to at the match, agreed that the half-day format was FAR superior to the old all-day format that included long waits between stages and had you at the range from daybreak to dusk on both days. I registered early and chose the Sat afternoon and Sunday morning schedule which would have allowed me to only have a single night at a hotel. The alternate choice is still far better than the old way since it gives you more freedom and less time waiting between stages.

The first problem is that some folks waited until the last minute to register and then demanded the preferred Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning schedule. When they were advised that schedule was already full, they chose not to shoot the match rather than accepting the all day Friday or Sat morning and Sunday afternoon schedule.

I am told that approximately 100 guns were won by competitors, and this is the most that I have ever heard of being distributed at a match of this type. While we have all read about past Florida Open prize tables, I can only recall one comment about this year’s prizes.

After all of the “improvements” to the match, Frank experienced one of the lowest turnouts in recent years. Frank is now trying to evaluate what “went wrong” this year to cause the reduced turnout. He is evaluating all of the recent changes to decide what changes are improvements and what changes should be returned to the original methods.

You constructive comments would be appreciated.

[Shay1911]

An extra hour of sleep before we start would be nice:)

[XRe]

The first problem is that some folks waited until the last minute to register and then demanded the preferred Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning schedule. When they were advised that schedule was already full, they chose not to shoot the match rather than accepting the all day Friday or Sat morning and Sunday afternoon schedule.

Well, frankly, ... boo-hoo You snooze, you lose. Do you want to come play, or whine? As it turns out, the Saturday morning, Sunday afternoon rotation was better, anyhow - no rain to contend with, and overcast skies in the morning, making the east bays far easier to shoot in.

That being said - I also spoke to several people who chose not to come because they anticipated the older schedule, and didn't want to deal with the hour plus wait between stages. When I told them the format had changed, they were like "Really? I'd have gone if I'd have known that...."

Finally, what extremely large firearms industry event happened the weekend before and the week leading up to the match this year, and what impact might have that had on match attendance?

I am told that approximately 100 guns were won by competitors, and this is the most that I have ever heard of being distributed at a match of this type. While we have all read about past Florida Open prize tables, I can only recall one comment about this year's prizes.

Well, based on the other thread, you should recall at least two

If Frank keeps things the same as this year, word will make it around, and attendance will improve. Giving guns out to class winners all the way down - plus the shoot off winners - will definitely tend to pull folks in. The key here is consistency and solidity of the messaging delivered before the match. Coming into the match, most folks didn't know what was going on with the prize table at all. I'd heard through the grapevine that there were going to be "a lot of guns" on the prize table, but no information about how they were going to be distributed, etc. If its clear to folks that class winners will expect something nice off the table, its going to give them something to go after...

Even though I walked away from the match with nothing (as opposed to a couple of small saleable items like last year), I think this was a much better arrangement that awarded good performance in the match.

After all of the "improvements" to the match, Frank experienced one of the lowest turnouts in recent years. Frank is now trying to evaluate what "went wrong" this year to cause the reduced turnout. He is evaluating all of the recent changes to decide what changes are improvements and what changes should be returned to the original methods.

You constructive comments would be appreciated.

See above, obviously. I strongly feel that the match format this year was much more shootable and more enjoyable for me as a competitor. I would highly encourage Frank to stick with it for next year - and instead get the marketing spun up a bit more, and avoid the weekend following the SHOT show If he can somehow arrange to go even deeper on the prizes, that certainly won't hurt things at all.

Continuing to offer high quality stages and a high quality match experience will keep people coming - those are the hallmarks of this match, in my opinion.

[CAB33]

The match ran so smoothly this year that I don't know how you could think of changing it.

The two people I talked to that didn't shoot the match this year said it was because of the old

schedule of shoot and wait an hour or more then shoot, wait...

[AlamoShooter]

I have not been to the match, I wanted to go this year. Cost of everything =(not the match cost) kept me from coming. travel cost, Time cost, and my Anniversary is the next weekend / Valentines day.

I wanted to come I simply could not afford the time or the travel cost.

I have heard nothing but good things about the match. & I hope to bring my crew next year

Jamie

[XRe]

I'll offer one other bit - this is simply opinion. I don't know all the facts, or why the decisions are made to do things the way they are - trying not to make assumptions about it...

I really see no reason why this match should not at least be a USPSA Level I match, and really should be a Level II match. This is a tournament grade match, and the competitors should be offered the chance for the classifications to be updated, etc. It should be made clear on the website and the match application that this is the case, and the match should be run completely under the auspices of the USPSA - or clearly state that it is not, and what rules will be used. I didn't see anything way too goofy, but there was a lot of talk about "looseness" with the rules, and wonderings as to whether this was a USPSA match or not, etc. It would be nice for that to be known clearly up front.

And, I'd really rather see the chrono operated in a more ... consistent ... fashion, per the rules. The chrono is such a goofy thing, if its going to be used, it should be used correctly, or not at all. Each competitor should have ammo collected, bullet weight declared (at a minimum, weighed if possible), and ammo fired through their gun. I was not asked a bullet weight - and the Zero 121gr bullets I was shooting look externally exactly like the Zero 125. So, who knows if I actually was above even 160 PF for the match? (I do - should've been 172 - but you get my point, I think?)

Neither of those points would keep me from coming back, BTW - just thought I'd suggest the things that I personally would change, if it were up to me

[nhglyn]

I started shooting this sport 4 years ago and have been to every FL Open since then. So, for me, this was the best ever. I think the new scheduling is absolutely FANTASTIC. Please do not ever change back to the old way, this is sooooo much better.

My other comment would be to not double up on pits by having 2 stages in them, unless you absolutely have to. I really like the extra 2 stages but would rather see them placed in other pits. Is there room over near where Eric gave his lesson, to the right of the plate racks?

Lastly, I missed the helicopter!

Thanks, see you next year.

[cpty1]

This was the first year ever that I only did the vendor thing and didn't shoot the match. The all gun prize table (110 guns as I understand it) meant it was more expensive for me to set up than in previous years and I needed to recoup that extra expense. The higher cost to be there as a vendor was the reason there were fewer vendors there this year IMO. Frank also asked the vendors what they thought of the new format. In my opinion the new format only changed the dynamics of how people came thru the tent. This year it was everyone coming thru in mass, instead of periodically a few at a time as breaks came up in previous years. I think if he keeps the current format and prize structure, he'll have more people wanting to shoot the match than can be run thru in 3 days.

[moverfive]

I really thought the match's schedule format this year was awesome. And based on the comments from everyone else, returning to the old format would be a step backwards.

And yes, the course descriptions/application of the rules were not exactly being applied "properly." And to paraphrase one RO's comments when questioning the legality of some of the course descriptions - "Hey, this the Florida Open. Anything goes!" And while I can appreciate a format where 'USPSA rules will generally apply,' I would think that a match of this level and quality should be run with a little more formality......as also noted previously with the chronograph procedures.

But none of that deterred from the match in any shape or form, in my opinion, but is just a comment.

The one thing I always say about the Florida Open - I wish everyone aspiring to design stages would shoot this match. When you walk away from a match and hear about good shooters with several misses, stages won with extremely low hit factors on field courses, and having people spend tons of time analyzing the stage......and all without a single no-shoot or anything at extreme distances......that should tell you that courses of fire can be fun AND challenging at the same time without being ridiculous. I have shot many stages where the designer said something to the effect, "this should slow down the GM's and M's." And the only thing that course did was make it VERY unfun for the lower classified shooters......and not slow down the top level shooters that much. So to consistently keep stages fun and tough year after year is just amazing in my opinion.

[38superman]

I have attended the last three Fla Opens and this was the first one I've missed.

The biggest reason was money.

The economy is sluggish and I have had only part time work for the last three months.

I normally drive to the match and with fuel costs, it's no small consideration.

I hate that I missed it and the changes that were made sound like definate improvements.

I don't think the low turn out had that much to do with the format.

More likely it was factors that were well beyond Frank's control.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of matches see lower attendance this year.

[boo radley]

This was only my 3rd Open, so please weigh my comments accordingly.

I thought, as always, the stages were terrific. I would just assume see ten 29-32 round field courses again, instead of the four smaller courses, but GA and Alabama were interesting. WV and Va....well, they were better than that one stage a couple years ago, where you tossed a die with red, white and blue sides.

But for sure, in general they were challenging, imaginative, and presented options. What moverfive said above. Great job!

The 1/2 day format was nice, but I guess I'm one of the few that didn't mind the other format that much, either.

No real complaints -- I suspect any down-tic is a function of the economy. This is a very expensive match. The prize format seemed fair this year, and it was nice having a chance to win a gun, though I'd be happy to shoot for $100 and no prizes. Maybe, since the entry fee *is* $200, or $228 with an XXL shirt, some small but nice goody could be thrown in each shooter's match bag; coupon for a free lunch, or a T-shirt, or something. I did get a Montana Gold sampler of 4 bullets. Oh, one other minor quibble -- the plate-rack area got jammed *quickly*. About noon on Saturday, there were about 12-15 people queued up, and just one guy running it. Probably nicer to restrict people to 1 magazine, if there's a wait, then allow a shooter to shoot 100+ rounds for $5...

Very smooth match. I liked, too, how fast the results went up on his webpage.

Steve

[Radical Precision Designs]

This was the first year ever that I only did the vendor thing and didn't shoot the match. The all gun prize table (110 guns as I understand it) meant it was more expensive for me to set up than in previous years and I needed to recoup that extra expense. The higher cost to be there as a vendor was the reason there were fewer vendors there this year IMO. Frank also asked the vendors what they thought of the new format. In my opinion the new format only changed the dynamics of how people came thru the tent. This year it was everyone coming thru in mass, instead of periodically a few at a time as breaks came up in previous years. I think if he keeps the current format and prize structure, he'll have more people wanting to shoot the match than can be run thru in 3 days.

Vendors, just like the shooters are a main ingredient in this Match. If all the money to run the match and pay for prizes came from the shooters, the whole thing would cost even more. And, if all the money came from the shooters, then the biggest share of the shooters would get the smallest return in prizes and bitching would start about subsidizing the top shooters only. You can not forget the "little guy" by over-compensating the big guys only. That is why many people still liked the the "generic bag" of goodies. Unfortunately for the "generic bag of goodies" you will need the vendors, and vendors in numbers.

The Prize Table IS sorely missed by all, even if not admitted. It gave shooters something to "gawk" at between stages, and a goal to place better overall to improve your "turn at the table". It also gave the vendors a better advertising value for their dollar, in merchandise/brand recognition.

While a 100+ guns given away sounds impressive, it does not translate the value to those vendors that contributed to it. I am sure that many of those guns were purchased from proceeds of the entry fees. So the question is: "who do you thank for it"?? and , who gets the advertising/promotional value. In a way the 100+ guns became a form of the "generic bag of goodies" that were distributed instead in "generic certificates in an envelope". without knowledge as to what kind of gun was inside. After all "parading/flaunting your prize" and the quality of it has always been a foremost goal of the winning participants. If an envelope may contain a $5,000.00 custom gun instead of a $250.00 lesser gun it will make the same impact in a similarly sealed and presented envelope. Neither the "giver/source" nor the receiver of the gun can get the full "exploited" value of the moment. The moment is diminished along the line to no one's real gain. IMHO, these 100+ guns given away had the same impact as the previous 300+ generic bags given away, with the difference being the number of participants getting them randomly. I do understand that a positive change in this direction may require a little bit more of pre-match preparation, but this can upset a much better received presentation. It all comes down to properly "marketing" the saleability of the match to both vendors and participants. More and better motivated vendors will make for more and better motivated participants ... and a happier Frank Garcia.

Bring back the Prize Table with a variety of products to pick from, as the "drool factor" can be valuable to everyone. And if you give guns, it may maximize its impact if everybody knew ahead of time what it was, not just a "secret" surprise later for the receiver or the observers.

As for the Match itself, the half day format rocked big time with everyone. And, yes it would be nice if somehow it had more "official" USPSA status or recognition. ( and it would help "weed out" the sandbaggers ... LMAO!!)

[rgkeller]

Times are getting tough. And expensive, particular for shooters. I would attribute any falloff in attendance to outside influences.

The stages are the best collection that most shooters see all year and should be the match's main attraction.

If guns are the prizes, I would rather see fewer but better ones.

A better outreach to the Florida clubs might get some the missing local shooters back by getting them involved in the enterprise.

I like the match and the new schedule and getting out before dark on Sunday.

[Bigbadaboom]

I really enjoyed this match. I thought that the 100+ gun thing was cool even though I don't shoot this sport for the prizes. The format was the best I've seen out of all the matches I've shot but one way to avoid some of the late entries complaining (Which you'll always get some) may be to have Sat.AM/Sun.AM and Sat.PM/Sun.PM instead of Sat.AM/Sun.PM and Sat.PM/Sun.AM. It spreads the down time evenly.

Stages were good. Very challenging and enjoyable. I'ld shoot the exact same match again.

[Thomas Moore]

i agree with Boo on this one, drop the prize table and decrease the entry fee. the prize is shooting the match. but give away plaques, ya gotta have something to look at when you win.

[No Evil]

This was my 1st FL Open, but I absolutely LOVED it.

I heard a lot about looong waits from other shooters that did not to shoot it this year, so I kept wondering how it would be.

But it was perfect...we were always on schedule or ahead of it.

SQUAD 29 rocked!!!

BONUS....I walked away with a GUN!!!! (3rd place C, Limited) how could I ask for more?????

praise to the entire staff!!!!

[ebg3]

This was the 8th time I've shot Frank's match. I thought this year's format was far better than the previous years'. The range was less congested with the 1/2 day format and the stages seemed to flow better. As always, I wish I'd shot better...squad 27 was awesome, everyone helped out and got along great. I had a large time and will be back next year!

EG

[Chris Keen]

I didn't shoot it this year, but I was there in 2006. I do remember waiting between stages, but I don't remember being upset about it. Some shooters will appreciate being able to get in and out with only 1 night at a hotel, but others (like me) will still come down a day early to get a looksie at the stages prior to shooting. I consider that extra hotel night part of my cost to "shoot better". It's money well spent IMO.

The debate over prize tables, guns, and "who got what" will go on forever.

In my opinion this should be a Level III match run under USPSA rules. It doesn't take that much effort to apply for level III approval, and it brings so many more benefits along with it.

I also don't understand why it has to have ALL "Classic" targets ...... maybe to keep its "international Flair" as high as possible, but it's a well known fact that this is The United States of America and we have 2 kinds of targets here.

But the shoot-off is a nice bonus, and so is that great Florida weather.

I think the low attendance would be attributed to the sluggish economy, and the SHOT show, but I would also agree with Dave Re in that there could be more advertising / promoting done to get the important details out beforehand.

And I want to make it clear that I didn't NOT return because of the "format" or flavor of the match. The match is great. It just comes down to money. For someone from the midwest to attend a match in Florida you need to account more money for travel expenses, as well as lodging & match fees. It can quickly become a $1000 trip before you know it. I would have to agree with whoever said I would rather shoot for $100 with no prize table.

[rgkeller]

How does the match make up of mostly thirty plus round field courses affect sanction as Level III?

[scirocco38s]

I have shot every Fl. Open except the first. I enjoyed the format of this one much more. I was on a very good squad, and had an excellent time. I always come down a day early(thursday) and stay until monday so I am prepared for this cost. I know of several shooters that didnt go because of the old format, they didnt like the down time. I think that some of the turnout issues are economic driven, and some are other issues. I know of at least 2 vendors that chose not to show up because of what Frank was demanding of them to be there.(I personally think this is a mistake as the vendors support the sport enough and should probably be allowed to come for free or just pay part of the tent rental so it is a no cost issue for Frank.) The prize table is not why I personally go as I typically give away to other shooters the stuff I get. I go to see old friends and to get out of the cold for a few days, and to shoot a great match. I personally didnt like a few of the stages this year as I felt they were not truly a legal stage.(You cant have a field course and then state where targets may be shot.) That being said, it wasnt a deal breaker that would make me write of the match forever. The staff was as good this year as he has ever had. Even Rosie was in an excellent mood. The weather didnt cooperate 100% but it didnt ruin the match either as it only truly rained about 10 minutes on saturday afternoon. I was especially happy that it was the weekend before the daytona 500 so the traffic issues were far better than in previous years. Next year when the match is announced I will send in my application as usual and will probably shoot the saturday afternoon/sunday morning and get a jump on traffic as I dont enjoy the 11 hour drive back and will break it up into 2 days. Overall though I have no complaints.

[Charles Bond]

You can not ignore that several shooters attended SHOT earlier in the week and either did not have the time or the money or energy to get to FL so quickly thereafter. The new schedule was a huge improvement and I have little doubt that next year he will be oversubscribed. Had the prize table format and the new shooting schedule received more press this year, I am all but certain that Frank would have sold the match out in 2008.

[BSeevers]

I did not attend because the Fun vs Cost factor was too high. I could not justify, to myself, spending the money required. Its a economy/bullet/transportation thing mostly.

I do think the lower amount of steel/movers and the general layout of too many far classic targets of the FL Open takes some of the fun factor away. Nothing wrong with far hard targets(in fact I would complain if it was a close hoser only match too) there just needs to be a balance to make me say- Great match, I will not miss it. I also do this for fun too and I can say that quote for 3 or 4 matches every year. This opinion is not why I did not attend. FL Open has a lot more positives than this negative.

Edited February 13, 2008 by BSeevers

[Roy T]

Thanks for all the input. Since I am part of the match I will tell all who replied it will be given much thought. I think you can all see they can't all be instituted since some are 180 degrees apart in idea concept. I have attended and worked matches all over and hear comments very much like the ones I have viewed here, so I guess it is true you can't please em all. As some of you know (the Noyes and the Subers of the world) an event of this size takes a big hunk of someone's time and energy and most would like it to be great for all. Realizing that to be unrealistic you still try to guard against becoming callous and thinking "to heck with them" by asking for and giving strong consideration to input even criticism. I will not venture a guess as to what reasons some could or could not make it. As for the vendors; give all who came a big thanks because they dug deep to contribute. Having been one I know it is a business decision and some may well loose financially to support the sport on some events so we thank them and continue to buy stuff. The USPSA thing is too deep to discuss here with a fairness to both sides. The web page did list the new shooting format and it listed lots of guns as prizes, 7-8 more to folks who stayed through awards so I am not sure how to get the word out any better. We will probably do it again next year or until we give up on the perfect match and just go to other matches and shoot.

Keep em coming

[XD Niner]

Overall I thought it was an outstanding match and the best of the past three years. +1,000,000 on the half-day schedule. Here are a few other thoughts:

Pros

1. Half day format

2. Terrific, imaginative and very challenging stages filled with long shots. I like the decorate props and the Grand Canyon was particularly good this year.

3. Effective use of real hard cover yet no partial targets

4. Fixed (and very good) RO’s

5. Terrific match staff

6. Advancing the match one week

7. Great range layout and facilities

8. Squad 27

Cons

1. All classic targets. I’d like to see a few stages with metrics as well.

2. Very unusual chrono procedures

3. Not much to do in the area when not shooting. Unless Frostproof is purchased as the new Disney World annex, this is not likely to change

4. High match fee to subsidize the guns that were given away or a prize table. I’d rather see the match fee cut. In fact, this may be one of the key reasons for the lower turnout (I sure didn’t notice it) given the current economic concerns.

I have yet to attend the perfect match but this one is pretty close. Again, my heartfelt thanks to everyone who worked so hard to make it happen.

[zhunter]

I had shot the previous 3 FL Opens, but due to work, was not able to shoot this one.

I normally shoot the ALL-Day Friday format, as I like to get on with things rather than stand around a lot. It sounds like the new format was really good.

Sorry I missed a great match.