USPSA bound by....

[JFD]

I could be wrong, but it appears the Steel Challenge equipment rules for the 4 IDPA divisions say that these divisions will be governed by the IDPA rulebook.

So when do we get our IDPA rulebook from USPSA?( )

I wonder how this will work out?

[Carmoney]

I could be wrong, but it appears the Steel Challenge equipment rules for the 4 IDPA divisions say that these divisions will be governed by the IDPA rulebook.

So when do we get our IDPA rulebook from USPSA?( )

I wonder how this will work out?

I hope it goes by the wayside. I have always thought recognizing the IDPA categories at the Steel Challenge was a silly idea. Same with the single-action stuff.

[Steve J]

I could be wrong, but it appears the Steel Challenge equipment rules for the 4 IDPA divisions say that these divisions will be governed by the IDPA rulebook.

So when do we get our IDPA rulebook from USPSA?( )

I wonder how this will work out?

I hope it goes by the wayside. I have always thought recognizing the IDPA categories at the Steel Challenge was a silly idea. Same with the single-action stuff.

And that's exactly why we're all hoping that USPSA will keep their fingers out of the Steel Challenge pie and let it proceed and run as it is now. It's not broken. Don't try to fix it.

[dirtypool40]

yeah, that's something that needs clarifying before things get out of hand. The last thing we want is "help" from the rule book that needs fax pages and text messages every couple minutes updating the gear list.

Think it through. Open, Limited, Revo, Single Stack, and Production. What else would we need so IDPA is not excluded? Nothing. Things are watered down enough without more "small ponding" in hopes of gaining three more contestants. Just MHO.

[ddj8052]

I could be wrong, but it appears the Steel Challenge equipment rules for the 4 IDPA divisions say that these divisions will be governed by the IDPA rulebook.

So when do we get our IDPA rulebook from USPSA?( )

I wonder how this will work out?

I hope it goes by the wayside. I have always thought recognizing the IDPA categories at the Steel Challenge was a silly idea. Same with the single-action stuff.

And that's exactly why we're all hoping that USPSA will keep their fingers out of the Steel Challenge pie and let it proceed and run as it is now. It's not broken. Don't try to fix it.

+1

I really hope everyone at USPSA can keep away from the basic layout of the Steel Challenge. There is nothing wrong with the match as it is. Taking away from its basic elements (including removing the IDPA Categories) will kill the match. I say leave the big match alone!

Now I am in favor of other regional matches throughout the country, but feel these should only be practice matches for the main event in Piru.

[AikiDale]

In my no where near humble opinion, having never been to Piru for the big match, I would suggest we leave the format of the Steel Challenge just the way it has been so successfully run for years. It does not matter there is no difference between USPSA Single Stack and IDPA CDP. What matters is that no matter ones discipline, one may attend this match and shoot the same division one regularly shoots, whether SASS, IDPA or USPSA and feel welcome.

[Merlin Orr]

As when shooting USPSA I shoot Limited I feel that all categories except Limited should be abolished... As I don't shoot SC matches just abolish it all.... Same for all the shotgun sports, cowboy and the precision rifle games. If I don't shoot em they are stupid so ... why not just do away with them...?

[Fireant]

In my no where near humble opinion, having never been to Piru for the big match, I would suggest we leave the format of the Steel Challenge just the way it has been so successfully run for years. It does not matter there is no difference between USPSA Single Stack and IDPA CDP. What matters is that no matter ones discipline, one may attend this match and shoot the same division one regularly shoots, whether SASS, IDPA or USPSA and feel welcome.

There are differecnces CDP is 45 ACP only and single stack is .355 cal and up. Limited I can use a race holster, but ESP I can not and so on. Leave the divisions alone and shoot the one or ones you want to.

[MEC]

As when shooting USPSA I shoot Limited I feel that all categories except Limited should be abolished... As I don't shoot SC matches just abolish it all.... Same for all the shotgun sports, cowboy and the precision rifle games. If I don't shoot em they are stupid so ... why not just do away with them...?

I just had the same arguement with my 6 year old daughter about basketball this morning. My 7 year old likes to play but since the 6 year doen't like it then she thinks it's stupid.

FYI: Part of the agenda for the January 26-27 USPSA board meeting is to approve the Steel Challenge Policy Manual. This would probably be the venue to give your 2 cents on the rules for the future of Steel Challenge.

[AlamoShooter]

Leave No Shooter Behind, It would be hard on me to RO and cover IDPA shooter rules. But If I wanted easy I would stay at home.

When I send in a thank-you note to the sponsors I tell them that each person at the event represents 10 to 20 shooters at home. If I take home something its like 20 people won it. Leave out one guy and you can multiply that by 10 to 20, Leave out an entire group and you have leave out 1000s

Together We Stand - Divided We Fall

Jamie Foote

[Flexmoney]

Weren't the IDPA categories added not too long ago? I don't know that the success of SC is dependent upon them? But, as Dale said...we do need to make folks feel welcome.

The local SC match that I ran...we broke the scores out into divisions. The big SC match works more like categories. Everybody is scored heads-up for the overall. So...unless you are shooting Open, expect to be down the list a bit. In a situation like that...add as many categories as you heart desires. They all become a subset of Open anyways.

Our local, I ran with these divisions:

- Limited

- Open

- Revolver

- Open Revolver

- .22 rimfire

- .22 rimfire Open

- Pistol Caliber Carbine (recently added...not yet broken into red-dots and irons)

The fact is, we could have lumped revolver in with Limited and Open at our local. I kept them separated because we had a couple of old school'ers that like to go head to head with each other with their wheel guns (and Anderson, et al. would crush them in "Open"). But, shooting-wise, the round guns don't give up any advantage unless you are only running a 6 shooter (which we didn't have separated out anyways).

What does make a difference is the holster. SC is one of the few games that the holster really factors in quite a bit. A tenth of a second saved on the draw works out to 2.0 seconds saved on the match...and that is HUGE (more than enough to decide the match). The same might be said for a true double-action first shot??? I don't know the numbers there. I do know that a Glock, a single-stack 1911, etc...is competitive with any STI based gun.

[Steve J]

And let's not forget the sponsors. It's not just a category to see how you compare to your non-open peers.

IDPA Categories (International Defensive Pistol Association)

Brownell's, Inc. - Custom Defensive Pistol 1st - $500, 2nd - $400, 3rd - $300, and $150 Twice By Drawing!

COLT - Enhanced Service Pistol 1st, 2nd, 3rd - Firearms. Plus one additional Colt firearm by random drawing to remaining competitors in this division.

GLOCK, Inc. - Stock Service Pistol 1st, 2nd, 3rd - Firearms. Plus one additional GLOCK firearm by random drawing to remaining competitors in this division.

Steel Challenge Sponsors

[Nik Habicht]

It's 8 stages x 4 best runs right? So, a .10 difference on the draw could add up to 3.2 seconds, which would be quite a separation from first to xx place, no?

[JFD]

Personally I just hope they get rid of the references to either rule book. Seems really half-assed to simply refer to someone else's rules, even if they are "ours". I also see there's a Cowboy division with equipment governed by the SASS rulebook. Our shooting bags are going to have to turn into small libraries for us to contemplate holding SC matches.

With USPSA divisions, IDPA divisions, Cowboy divivion and rimfire there are a buttload of divisions for the SC. Thinking back to the attempts to get rid of the very popular L-10 because of the "watering down the competition" theory, I wonder if all those divisions will survive?

The info I have on the SC rules seems to indicate there may be a rulebook out there somewhere for the SC that I haven't seen that may be received when joining the SC. There may even be a periodical available. Are USPSA members also going to be SC members? Seems like we paid for it with our membership dues, so we should be. I don't know.

Anyone else noticed that if we wanted to hold a local/state/area level SC match we aren't allowed cash prizes? That's reserved for the big match in CA. That sucks.

Integrating the SC with USPSA is going to be interesting for sure. Right now I've got 15% of my heart still working, so it may never affect me personally, but I think the SC will be my only choice if I'm ever cleared to compete again. Keeps me very interested in how it's handled. I've never shot steel, so I really don't have an opinion on how decisions by our BOD could affect the SC.

I wonder if there's a time frame for our BOD to get this worked out? Seems like everything would have to be solid for 2009 at the latest.

Just thinking a little bit about the SC sure does bring up a lot of questions....

[Flexmoney]

And let's not forget the sponsors. It's not just a category to see how you compare to your non-open peers.

IDPA Categories (International Defensive Pistol Association)

Brownell's, Inc. - Custom Defensive Pistol 1st - $500, 2nd - $400, 3rd - $300, and $150 Twice By Drawing!

COLT - Enhanced Service Pistol 1st, 2nd, 3rd - Firearms. Plus one additional Colt firearm by random drawing to remaining competitors in this division.

GLOCK, Inc. - Stock Service Pistol 1st, 2nd, 3rd - Firearms. Plus one additional GLOCK firearm by random drawing to remaining competitors in this division.

Steel Challenge Sponsors

Good point.

The BIG match may be adding in divisions/categories to bring sponsors on board.

That is not something that all matched need be concerned with (especially local matches).

[Flexmoney]

It's 8 stages x 4 best runs right? So, a .10 difference on the draw could add up to 3.2 seconds, which would be quite a separation from first to xx place, no?

I think they run one of those 8 at 4 runs instead of 5. I don't know if they toss one out there or not.

My math was based on the best 4 of 5 over our 5 stage local match. (That is where I got the 2.0 total difference.)

Any way you look at it...race holsters vs. stock is where a "division" line ought to be drawn...by the performance based logic of the timer.

[JFD]

So if the match is basically scored heads up against Open guns, then the division sponsors are the only way a non-Open shooter can hope to take anything home? Then there are a ton of categories based on age, choice of employment, etc...

I'm going to have to look again to see how the payout works for this match.

It seemed a lot more simple before I started looking into it.

[kmca]

It's 8 stages x 4 best runs right? So, a .10 difference on the draw could add up to 3.2 seconds, which would be quite a separation from first to xx place, no?

I think they run one of those 8 at 4 runs instead of 5. I don't know if they toss one out there or not.

My math was based on the best 4 of 5 over our 5 stage local match. (That is where I got the 2.0 total difference.)

Any way you look at it...race holsters vs. stock is where a "division" line ought to be drawn...by the performance based logic of the timer.

Outer Limits is best 3 out of 4.

Edited January 18, 2008 by kmca

[JFD]

The SC looks to be pretty hardcore about their dress code too.

Camo and stupid crap on t-shirts gets you immediately uninvited to the match. Good or bad, I agree with this rule.

[zhunter]

The SC looks to be pretty hardcore about their dress code too.

Camo and stupid crap on t-shirts gets you immediately uninvited to the match. Good or bad, I agree with this rule.

It is held in Kalifonia, the PC crowd there is pretty tough

[Clyde]

In my no where near humble opinion, having never been to Piru for the big match, I would suggest we leave the format of the Steel Challenge just the way it has been so successfully run for years. It does not matter there is no difference between USPSA Single Stack and IDPA CDP. What matters is that no matter ones discipline, one may attend this match and shoot the same division one regularly shoots, whether SASS, IDPA or USPSA and feel welcome.

Amen +1

[shred]

The SC looks to be pretty hardcore about their dress code too.

Camo and stupid crap on t-shirts gets you immediately uninvited to the match. Good or bad, I agree with this rule.

It is held in Kalifonia, the PC crowd there is pretty tough

Cowboy outfits are encouraged but not actually required for Single-Action competitors.

In reality, all you get for an IDPA or Revolver entry is a letter next to your name on the overall order of finish results, and maybe a special prize from a sponsor if they want to recognize that division, there's no 'scores separated by division' concept. Prize table trips are strictly in order of overall finish.

Like all such things, policing is pretty light-- if the RO notices something really wrong like irons listed and you've got a scope, they'll note it, but otherwise it's up to the competitors to police themselves and each other. That seems to work pretty well. Locally we recognize both IDPA and Production, even though they are very similar.. it just doesn't matter.

[Ron Ankeny]

Leave the big match alone, for now. If you want to go shoot with the top dawgs, gear up, grip it and rip it...

Although Bruce hasn't reviewed it, I just finished the brochure (print and on-line) for the Wyoming State Steel Challenge match. I am proposing the following for our match. In our brochure we reference IDPA and USPSA rules for pistols, and we are also describing action types in order to help shooters determine wich division they will shoot. Then we are combining USPSA and IDPA divisions by platform for logistical purposes. We have limited space so we will limit the number of shooters and we can't have more divisions and special categories than we have shooters. IDPA SSP and USPSA Production (SA/DA, safe action, etc.) will shoot together. USPSA Limited, L10, SS, and IDPA CDP, and ESP will shoot together (single action 1911/2011 type, etc.). Holsters need to be safe, serviceable, etc. as described in the existing SC rules and shooters will run with what they brung.

Our match is all about promoting Steel Challenge in Wyoming and we are supporting and getting behind the USPSA aquisition. We will help shooters find the proper division on an indivdual basis and we will squad them with their buddies. We will also have an abundance of spare mags for common platforms (just in case) so we can keep things moving. For now, local match directors need to understand there will be growing pains, concerns, and maybe some confusion. Use some common sense and reason. We have all been around the block enough times to make all of this work.

[JFD]

I'm good to go as long as my Limited guns and race rigs are legal. Since they are, everything else is purely curiousity.

[Flexmoney]

Leave the big match alone, for now. If you want to go shoot with the top dawgs, gear up, grip it and rip it...

Although Bruce hasn't reviewed it, I just finished the brochure (print and on-line) for the Wyoming State Steel Challenge match. I am proposing the following for our match. In our brochure we reference IDPA and USPSA rules for pistols, and we are also describing action types in order to help shooters determine wich division they will shoot. Then we are combining USPSA and IDPA divisions by platform for logistical purposes. We have limited space so we will limit the number of shooters and we can't have more divisions and special categories than we have shooters. IDPA SSP and USPSA Production (SA/DA, safe action, etc.) will shoot together. USPSA Limited, L10, SS, and IDPA CDP, and ESP will shoot together (single action 1911/2011 type, etc.). Holsters need to be safe, serviceable, etc. as described in the existing SC rules and shooters will run with what they brung.

Our match is all about promoting Steel Challenge in Wyoming and we are supporting and getting behind the USPSA aquisition. We will help shooters find the proper division on an indivdual basis and we will squad them with their buddies. We will also have an abundance of spare mags for common platforms (just in case) so we can keep things moving. For now, local match directors need to understand there will be growing pains, concerns, and maybe some confusion. Use some common sense and reason. We have all been around the block enough times to make all of this work.

Ron, take a look at your holster types. L-10 and Lim allow race holsters, where SS, CDP and ESP don't. That makes more of a difference than a 1911 trigger vs. a Glock trigger, IMO.

Would going Open, Stock, and Stock (non race holster) work?