The term Combat Accuracy

[North]

Ok, I've been reading the gun rags because over here in the sandbox I have a lot of time.

Over and over the writers say it shot 3-6 inches at anywhere from 7 yards to 50 feet. But that’s more than suitable for combat accuracy or self defense.

I say this is CRAP. Think about our typical C and even lower B shooters (40 to say 70% shooters). How many C's, D's and Mike's are they getting with pistols that will shoot a 3 inch or better 25 yard group. A lot. These folks are a hell of a lot better shooters than say your average CCW person, but they still miss under pressure.

Take that same shooter, take away his gun and give him one that "has suitable combat accuracy" and see how many C's & D's turn into Mikes. I know it is possible for them to turn into A's as well, but the A zone is a lot smaller than the Mike Zone.

I think the suitable combat accuracy thing might be true for very good marksman. But when you factor the uncertainty of the shooter with the uncertainty of the weapon that that 3-6 inch group that pistolo is capable of; becomes more like 6-12 inches, which is ok if you are getting attacks by big thugs.

I think the writers should just say what the accuracy results were and let the buyer decide if that is within their personal margin of error.

[buddy_fuentes]

Most gun fights are 21' and closer, therefore, accuracy is not near as important as reliability. On the other hand I want to have my cake and eat it, too. I know that I can have an accurate gun that is reliable. I am a retired LEO and have specific ideas on what I need and what I don't need.

The gun writers have to give positive reports on the guns that they review. The gun manufacturers are the advertisers in the magazine and pay part of the bills. Stop and think how many gun manufacturers there are out there, not that many, and if you give them a rap on the knuckle for their poorly preforming gun...sooner or later they will stop sending them to you. They will send them to someone that gives them a good review. So if a gun delivers poor accuracy then the writer will say that it is acceptable "combat accuracy" and go on to other things like fit and finish, that won't do anything for you.

When the shooting starts, if you can't hit what you are shooting at it is time to leave. Heck, even if you can hit what you are shooting at it is time to leave.

Buddy

[JakeMartens]

combat accuracy is a term that gun writers use to beat around the bush instead of saying "this hunk of scrap metal sucks".

If you read this stuff long enough you will learn that they use I could, IMO.

For example:

"Find the right combination of ammo for this gun" = Jams

"100% reliable, except for some magazine problems"= Jams

"At least 1000 rounds for break in" = Won't feed, jams

there are lots more

[gunsablazin]

combat accuracy is a term that gun writers use to beat around the bush instead of saying "this hunk of scrap metal sucks".

If you read this stuff long enough you will learn that they use I could, IMO.

For example:

"Find the right combination of ammo for this gun" = Jams

"100% reliable, except for some magazine problems"= Jams

"At least 1000 rounds for break in" = Won't feed, jams

there are lots more

+1, the gun rags are entertaining at best, you never hear of anything but the latest wonder gun, there is only one that tells it like it is, they don't take ads at all.

[mjbine]

This is why I don't read the rags.

[bountyhunter]

combat accuracy is a term that gun writers use to beat around the bush instead of saying "this hunk of scrap metal sucks".

If you read this stuff long enough you will learn that they use I could, IMO.

For example:

"Find the right combination of ammo for this gun" = Jams

"100% reliable, except for some magazine problems"= Jams

"At least 1000 rounds for break in" = Won't feed, jams

there are lots more

"Great platform to build on" = worthless crap that would need $1000 dumped into it to make it shootable.

[revchuck]

"Great platform to build on" = worthless crap that would need $1000 dumped into it to make it shootable.

Just as a point of reference, 20-30 years ago this described about 90% of available 1911s (correcting backwards for inflation). Even today, pistolsmiths make a good bit of their income doing "reliability packages" on 1911s. Happily for us, they're mostly no longer needed.

My own take on the "combat accuracy" thing is that some gunwriters can't shoot better than six inches at fifty feet. Many of them are excellent shots, but nowhere near all of them.

[racerba]

Combat accuracy - reliable enough to send bullets towards the bad guy. The closer they are to the muzzle, the more accurate the gun is.

[buddy_fuentes]

Combat Accuracy? I think that if they (magazines/gun writers) are going to test a guns accuracy, there should be a standard test. A Ransom Rest should be used and the distance should be a set distance. I have a Ransom Rest and I am not a gun-writer that makes a living testing guns.

Take the human error out and we will see what that particular gun will do with the provided ammo. Then we can decide if we think that it is adequate for combat, punching paper, or dinging steel.

The best pistol shooter in the world is not going to have a good day every day and comparing a best three to a Ransom Rest. Yes, I saw what they said were the final results. I don't really think there is a tooth fairy either.

Buddy

[JThompson]

Well, maybe we should send their asses to an actual combat zone, and see how their reviews would read.... if they made it back. I'd love to say good things about XXX, but I lost an arm because the piece of shit jammed. I saw the bad guy before he saw me and had a clear shot, only to hit a foot above his head... at which point he turned and shot me dead with an old rusted AK.

Edited November 8, 2007 by JThompson

[mjbine]

Well, maybe we should send their asses to an actual combat zone, and see how their reviews would read.... if they made it back. I'd love to say good things about XXX, but I lost an arm because the piece of shit jammed. I saw the bad guy before he saw me and had a clear shot, only to hit a foot above his head... at which point he turned and shot me dead with an old rusted AK.

Dude..........

[North]

Well, maybe we should send their asses to an actual combat zone, and see how their reviews would read.... if they made it back. I'd love to say good things about XXX, but I lost an arm because the piece of shit jammed. I saw the bad guy before he saw me and had a clear shot, only to hit a foot above his head... at which point he turned and shot me dead with an old rusted AK.

+1000

[dirtypool40]

I like how every author has their own tests that are THE TRUE COMBAT skills tests.

an 8x11 sheet of typing paper, a b21 sillywet, two then one drills at 5y so they can post decent times. It gets pretty ridiculous. "Throwing out the three 'called flyers' from the five shot, 7y benrested group, I was able to get very respectable patterns"

I posted somewhere on here about gunwriters "tactical" madlibs.

____________ would make the perfect carry gun.

____________ is the ultimate IDPA piece, (but be sure to stay away from IPSC.)

____________ an outstanding choice for a SWAT entry pistol.

____________ is accurate enough for head shots out to 11'.

____________ knives are the only way REAL OPERATORS arms themselves. If it's not Navy SEAL endorsed and $400+ it's not a knife to bet your life on.

as a retired ___________________ (reserve fire fighter, but insinuate you taught the D-boys to shoot) I can honestly say the ___________ would be the ultimate in offensive handguns.

____________ doesn't have great sights, but REAL OPERATORS don't use them anyway.

____________ offers four color, pulsating night sights which is the only way REAL OPERATORS will accept their equipment.

____________ offers more power than a .50 Desert Eagle or G21 loaded w +p's, but carries like a J frame and kicks less than a compensated .22lr.

a $5000 1911 from _____________ is the only one REAL OPERATORS will trust their lives to. I was unable to get the same 100% reliability as the $700 Springfield, but knowing the gunsmith is a drinking buddy of former Navy logistics clerks lends great confidence to my decision to invest in this caliber of heirloom.

9mm is plenty of medicine in the ___________.

You can't expect a shotun that isn't at least partially OD Green or costing less then $1000 to safeguard your family.

.45 is not nearly enough so I also carry the _________.

After 20 years of overwhelming selection by Law Enforcement, clearly the .40 has no place in the real world, whereas a smaller, lighter bullet going 100 fps slower in the sexy little bottlenecked .357 might be the ultimate tactical cartridge.

I cannot imagine a scenario where a reload would be required and more rounds or a magwell would be a plus.

I've modified my jammies to hold a tactical light, knife, two J-frames, extra AR mags, and an alphabetically organized bandoleer of 12 shells in a variety of fruity flavors. I suggest anyone serious about their safety do the same.

I don't like gamey, "rooney" guns. My "home defender" is a no nonsense Berretta with a 20 round mag, laser grips, a 6" ported barrel, and an optima.

The NTI is the ultimate test of "REAL WORLD" operators. We use real world equipment and scenarios, and are judged by a pannel of experts. Last year I carried my every day gear, roughly 61 pounds, including twin, custom P-14's, nine mags, a P-13 in a fanny pack, a P-12 in an ankle holster, and a P-10 concealed rectally. I had three knives, the cheapest of which cost more than your car, NVG's, two tactical lights, extra batteries, three cell phones, a charger, two flavors of pepper spray. And breath mints. I also had some lovely hostess gifts for the judges, and my lawyer.

Sorry, it's been a while, the humor fuse blew.

PLEASE NOTE: This is not an L10 or IDPA thread.

Edited November 8, 2007 by dirtypool40

[raz-0]

My own take on the "combat accuracy" thing is that some gunwriters can't shoot better than six inches at fifty feet. Many of them are excellent shots, but nowhere near all of them.

Yeah, that's pretty much my take. I've seen some articles where the item being reviewed looked as if it had been crafted out of a tin pot with a hammer. In those cases I'll buy that the gun wouldn't group. When it's somethign from a brand that I know produces weapons that are generally ok, and i see the magic phrase and no mention of a ransom rest in the article? the answer is that the auther can't shoot and didn't plan ahead for that.

[mjbine]

I like how every author has their own tests that are THE TRUE COMBAT skills tests.

an 8x11 sheet of typing paper, a b21 sillywet, two then one drills at 5y so they can post decent times. It gets pretty ridiculous. "Throwing out the three 'called flyers' from the five shot, 7y benrested group, I was able to get very respectable patterns"

I posted somewhere on here about gunwriters "tactical" madlibs.

____________ would make the perfect carry gun.

____________ is the ultimate IDPA piece, (but be sure to stay away from IPSC.)

____________ an outstanding choice for a SWAT entry pistol.

____________ is accurate enough for head shots out to 11'.

____________ knives are the only way REAL OPERATORS arms themselves. If it's not Navy SEAL endorsed and $400+ it's not a knife to bet your life on.

as a retired ___________________ (reserve fire fighter, but insinuate you taught the D-boys to shoot) I can honestly say the ___________ would be the ultimate in offensive handguns.

____________ doesn't have great sights, but REAL OPERATORS don't use them anyway.

____________ offers four color, pulsating night sights which is the only way REAL OPERATORS will accept their equipment.

____________ offers more power than a .50 Desert Eagle or G21 loaded w +p's, but carries like a J frame and kicks less than a compensated .22lr.

a $5000 1911 from _____________ is the only one REAL OPERATORS will trust their lives to. I was unable to get the same 100% reliability as the $700 Springfield, but knowing the gunsmith is a drinking buddy of former Navy logistics clerks lends great confidence to my decision to invest in this caliber of heirloom.

9mm is penty of medicine in the ___________.

You can't expect a shotun that isn't at least partially OD Green or costing less then $1000 to safeguard your family.

.45 is not nearly enough so I also carry the _________.

After 20 years of overwhelming selection by Law Enforcement, clearly the .40 has no place in the real world, whereas the sexy little bottlenecked .357 might be the ultimate tactical cartridge.

I cannot imagine a scenario where a reload would be required and more rounds or a magwell would be a plus.

I've modified my jammies to hold a tactical light, knife, two J-frames, extra AR mags, and an alphabetically organized bandoleer of 12 shells in a variety of fruity flavors. I suggest anyone serious about their safety do the same.

I don't like gamey, "rooney" guns. My "home defender" is a no nonsense Berretta with a 20 round mag, laser grips, a 6" ported barrel, and an optima.

The NTI is the ultimate test of "REAL WORLD" operators. We use real world equipment and scenarios, and are judged by a pannel of experts. Last year I carried my every day gear, roughly 61 pounds, including twin, custom P-14's, nine mags, a P-13 in a fanny pack, a P-12 in an ankle holster, and a P-10 I can't tell you where I hid it. I had three knives, the cheapest of which cost more than your car, NVG's, two tactical lights, extra batteries, three cell phones, a charger, two flavors of pepper spray. And breath mints. I also had some lovely hostess gifts for the judges, and my lawyer.

Sorry, it's been a while, the humor fuse blew.

PLEASE NOTE: This is not an L10 or IDPA thread.

...and then I went to DP to learn this nice time saving reload trick.....

[revchuck]

DP - Good one!

[buddy_fuentes]

Dirty Pool, I love it! However, you failed to mention that all current trends, in combat weapons, includes a rear view mirror.

Yeah, the gun writer has got to have that trick knife, light, and laser to complete his ensemble.

And another question...why don't they ever test STI/SVI, Brazo, Dawson, Hill, Bedell, just to name a few? Is it that the competition crowd doesn't spend money? Hmm, I try to make my wife believe that, but didn't think anyone else did.

Buddy

[Matt Cheely]

I don't like gamey, "rooney" guns. My "home defender" is a no nonsense Berretta with a 20 round mag, laser grips, a 6" ported barrel, and an optima.

[dirtypool40]

And another question...why don't they ever test STI/SVI, Brazo, Dawson, Hill, Bedell, just to name a few? Is it that the competition crowd doesn't spend money? Hmm, I try to make my wife believe that, but didn't think anyone else did.

Buddy

Yeah check out Handgunner, they give two tiny, grainy snaps of a badass, handcrafted Bedell Open gun, and in the same issue an entire, ten page Ichiro Nagata macro spread on Wilson's $400 imported "tacti-bargain".

I think that's a lot of why they bash IPSC so much; the Mall Ninja crowd buys more stuff than we do and therefore has more advertisers. At least that's the perception.

Once in a while something slips through; there was a nice little sidebar, not a main article mind you, about how a real "dagger in the teeth" type saw a high cap limited gun as tactical, it ran 100%, shot 2" @ 50y, and held 20 rounds of .40 major. But as soon as common sense escapes they hunt it down and kill it.

We're now in the "post-modern" tacti-cool era, where some gun writers are so tough they pick on other gun writers, and tell us we don't need "IP-sicky" improvemnets like say.... a beavertail or decent sights.

Edited November 8, 2007 by dirtypool40

[ima45dv8]

The NTI is the ultimate test of "REAL WORLD" operators. We use real world equipment and scenarios, and are judged by a pannel of experts. Last year I carried my every day gear, roughly 61 pounds, including twin, custom P-14's, nine mags, a P-13 in a fanny pack, a P-12 in an ankle holster, and a P-10 I can't tell you where I hid it. I had three knives, the cheapest of which cost more than your car, NVG's, two tactical lights, extra batteries, three cell phones, a charger, two flavors of pepper spray. And breath mints. I also had some lovely hostess gifts for the judges, and my lawyer.

Sounds like Rhino's walkin'-around gear. Of course, he can carry it all.

[dirtypool40]

the funny thing is I took inspiration for that list from an article, and I didn't really stretch it that far. It had drawings of gear placement (to be checked by officials of course) and a lengthy justification of why every piece was chosen.

[PCC-1]

DP:

Reading that post just made me think of some of the Tripple Canopy and Blackwater guys i ran across while in the "Sand Box". As i was reading it i could se them in my memory and was lMAO!!!! Plese dont think that i am bashing them as a whole.... but some of them had me wondering!!!! Most of them are pretty squared away guys!!!!

[kurtm]

Combat accuracy??? COMBAT ACCURACY???..NO, NO, NO, I Combat INACCURACY

[shred]

The trouble is there's nothing to say about the good competition guns:

"it works every time, it's more accurate than I am, it looks good, it costs a lot".

[Nik Habicht]

the funny thing is I took inspiration for that list from an article, and I didn't really stretch it that far. It had drawings of gear placement (to be checked by officials of course) and a lengthy justification of why every piece was chosen.

That was a long time ago --- maybe before I got my first gun......