Why not Sig

[cuzinvinny]

Forgive me if this is not the correct forum for this topic, but since I'm new and still a beginner when it comes to competition, I'll start here. When people talk about guns for competition, the one name that always seems to be missing is SIG. It seems the top production names are Glock, Springfield XD, CZ, and the M&P. I owned a P228 a few years back and found it fun and plesant to shoot. I would think it should be capable of competing with those already mentioned. While admittedly on the pricey side, I would think the Sig X5 would be another great possibility for competition. So why does Sig name seem so absent?

Edited September 28, 2007 by cuzinvinny

[mjbine]

Forgive me if this is not the correct forum for this topic, but since I'm new and still a beginner when it comes to competition, I'll start here. When people talk about guns for competition, the one name that always seems to be missing is SIG. It seems the top production names are Glock, Springfield XD, CZ, and the M&P. I owned a P228 a few years back and found it fun and plesant to shoot. I would think it should be capable of competing with those already mentioned. While admittedly on the pricey side, I would think the Sig X5 would be another great possibility for competition. So why does Sig name seem so absent?

Mostly because aftermarket parts and inital cost. I have a sig and like it. But I have done everything I wanted to for my glock and it is still way cheap than buying a sig.

Edited September 28, 2007 by mjbine

[03k64]

I've seen quite a few Sig in production at my local matches. I don't shoot my Sig because of the DA/SA trigger and prefer to use my Glock.

[SLM]

By nature the Sig's have a long trigger reset. That's why I don't shoot mine. It can be modified but it's not a cheap option. There's a member here (STUGOTSIG) that shoots a 226 IIRC that has had the reset mod done. I can drive tacks with my 226's but my CZ is my production gun.

[G-ManBart]

Forgive me if this is not the correct forum for this topic, but since I'm new and still a beginner when it comes to competition, I'll start here. When people talk about guns for competition, the one name that always seems to be missing is SIG. It seems the top production names are Glock, Springfield XD, CZ, and the M&P. I owned a P228 a few years back and found it fun and plesant to shoot. I would think it should be capable of competing with those already mentioned. While admittedly on the pricey side, I would think the Sig X5 would be another great possibility for competition. So why does Sig name seem so absent?

For Production class a Sig would be okay, but a lot of people struggle with the transition from double action to single action. Not that it can't be learned, but it's just one more thing.

I guess the Six X5 would be fine as a Limited 10 gun, but for Limited it just doesn't have the magazine capacity to make it competitive. Pretty much everyone has 18-21 round mags in .40 and I've never seen Sig mags that would let you do that. You might be able to get someone to weld some up that would fit the gauge, but is it really worth it when you can go with a proven platform and have less to worry about?

[lynn jones]

rodney may shot the sig at the nationals a couple weeks ago and came in 10th.. not to bad.

lynn

[gunnerBU]

I've been shooting a 229 since I started in production. I only started about 3 months ago, and the Sig definately takes some getting used to for competition. A lot of dry fire can help with the sear reset, but it can be done. As far as why they are not comnon, I think it is because of the price.

[flyingchange]

I shot a P228 my first year in USPSA because it's what I had.... then I got my hands on a G19 and found it much easier to shoot. Haven't looked back.

[1911user]

The long trigger reset was annoying since I switched between it and a 1911 45. Another issue was the slide lock is easy to hold down with your thumb if used to a 1911 safety. I used a 226 in production for about 8 months then switched to an M&P. I don't miss the 226 even though I shot fairly well with it.

[bierman]

Just my persoanl experience, but the SIG seems to be a bit more difficult to shoot at high speed than some of the the other guns used in Production. Glock's, CZ's, M&P's, Beretta's all have a bit lower barrel axis, making them a bit easier to control. I'm not saying they cannot be competitive, they just take more effort. Again this is just my experience, YMMV.

[Viggen]

To begin, shoot what you have. If it's a Sig that's fine. As you learn to shoot and see what holds together and what parts availability and function on other platforms you will transition to something else. If you still like a Sig, shoot it.

The X5 doesn't really fit any Division. although it could be used in L-10. Never even see on at a match, anywhere. But I have seen pictures.

[GeneralChang]

Instead of it's super pricey X5 line, I wish they had come out with a polymer version of X5 much like the Sigpro only with a few trigger refinements. It would have been a lot more economical but they missed the boat, what a bummer.

[ChrisStock]

To begin, shoot what you have. If it's a Sig that's fine. As you learn to shoot and see what holds together and what parts availability and function on other platforms you will transition to something else. If you still like a Sig, shoot it.

Very true statement. I started shooting in Production with my FN-FNP9, but migrated to another platform after being exposed to so many other shooters. There's not a thing wrong with shooting a Sig or FN, or even a Charles Daly for that matter. I would however advise heavily against investing in ANY gun platform until you KNOW EXACTLY what you want.

I like shooting the wife's P226 at the range.It is dead damn accurate, a ton of fun, but just not one I personally could compete with. I do have another shooter that I squad up with at matches who shoots in Production with his P226 twice a month, and good for him, no one is there to judge your preferred gear.

To distill everything down to one sentence, here you go:

Shoot with what makes YOU happy most of all.

[Carlos]

Nothing wrong with a sig. Trigger can be tuned. Transition from DA to SA is easy to learn. Seems reliable and accurate - that's all you need to go as far as you want in Production.

Only downsides I can think of are price, mag price, and the bore axis is a little high - but those won't stop you from winning with a sig if you do your part.

[EricW]

I have a Sig. I think it's probably one of the most accurate production pistols out of the box. There are three major issues with the Sig:

- Trigger Reach. For the life of me, I cannot understand why Sigs don't come with the short trigger as standard-issue. To cork it all off, they boxed themselves into a corner with the grip design. There's no way to design a grip replacement that shortens the trigger reach. The DA/SA wouldn't be an issue if people with small/medium hands had good trigger reach.

- Retraining one's self to decock prior to holstering. For a Glock jockey, this was a toughie for me believe it or not.

- Spring longevity. This isn't just my observation, I'm hearing this from several sources not the least of which is a major spring manufacturer. Sigs use lots o' springs and they just don't hold up. One major federal agency (that you've definitely heard of) is buying M&Ps because it's so bad. I was seriously toying with the idea of coming out with a Sig spring retrofit kit, but it looks like the major players are already leaving the platform.

I'm not trying to dig on Sig. But them's be the issues. I don't think the high bore axis is such an impediment FWIW. It's more of a geometrical talking point than an actual problem on the range.

[mjbine]

I have a Sig. I think it's probably one of the most accurate production pistols out of the box. There are three major issues with the Sig:

- Trigger Reach. For the life of me, I cannot understand why Sigs don't come with the short trigger as standard-issue. To cork it all off, they boxed themselves into a corner with the grip design. There's no way to design a grip replacement that shortens the trigger reach. The DA/SA wouldn't be an issue if people with small/medium hands had good trigger reach.

- Retraining one's self to decock prior to holstering. For a Glock jockey, this was a toughie for me believe it or not.

- Spring longevity. This isn't just my observation, I'm hearing this from several sources not the least of which is a major spring manufacturer. Sigs use lots o' springs and they just don't hold up. One major federal agency (that you've definitely heard of) is buying M&Ps because it's so bad. I was seriously toying with the idea of coming out with a Sig spring retrofit kit, but it looks like the major players are already leaving the platform.

I'm not trying to dig on Sig. But them's be the issues. I don't think the high bore axis is such an impediment FWIW. It's more of a geometrical talking point than an actual problem on the range.

Good insights, Eric!

[VeryBadshot]

I have a Sig that I carry and I love it. Was thinking about Production with it, but I still need to really get good with my XD40 in L10. If I had only the Sig I would shoot it no question.

[shred]

Sig had a big vendor table at the EHC in France-- everything from X5's to really nice wood stocked pistols to full Open race guns, a lot with sweet triggers. I think competition over here isn't a big deal to them, thus the lack of sponsored shooters shooting them and lack of high visibility.

[HuskySig]

I shoot a Sig P226 in Production exclusively. In fact seven of the nine handguns I own are Sigs. I'm a bit of a Sigophile. I definetly agree that Sigs are pricing themselves out of the market. Since 2002 NIB P226s have gone from roughly $500 to roughly $750.

I've heard a lot of people complain about the DA/SA transition. It takes practice and some patience. It's easier to shoot a Glock, XD, or M&P in this regard. I think people tend to be lazy and use what works the best now, not what will work great a few months from now.

In my opinion, the Sig high bore axis complaint is a myth perpetuated by shooters with bad a grip and poor follow through. It's possible to get a pretty high grip on a Sig, the new beavertailed Elite series should allow for an even higher grip.

I don't fully agree with Eric's statement about the grip size. I have small to medium sized hands, no chance at palming a basketball, and I have no problem reaching the standard size Sig trigger on my P226 for the DA stroke.

In my exerience, NIB Sigs are sprung like garage doors and the reset is longer than the buffet line at an AARP convention. I don't understand why Sigs are manufactured with such long reset, the SRT in the new Elite series addresses this problem though. I guess that's a step in the right direction.

As for the Sigs I use in IDPA and USPSA competitions, they have all been worked over by Bruce Gray. He started doing short reset work on Sigs a few years ago. The reset of my P226 is about 70% shorter than the factory. The DA and SA trigger pulls have also been lightened quite a bit. I have a lot of confidence in my equipment and that if I lose to someone shooting a Glock it's because he/she was a better shooter than me, not that my equipment failed me.

mattk

[G-ManBart]

I shoot a Sig P226 in Production exclusively. In fact seven of the nine handguns I own are Sigs. I'm a bit of a Sigophile. I definetly agree that Sigs are pricing themselves out of the market. Since 2002 NIB P226s have gone from roughly $500 to roughly $750.

I've heard a lot of people complain about the DA/SA transition. It takes practice and some patience. It's easier to shoot a Glock, XD, or M&P in this regard. I think people tend to be lazy and use what works the best now, not what will work great a few months from now.

In my opinion, the Sig high bore axis complaint is a myth perpetuated by shooters with bad a grip and poor follow through. It's possible to get a pretty high grip on a Sig, the new beavertailed Elite series should allow for an even higher grip.

I don't fully agree with Eric's statement about the grip size. I have small to medium sized hands, no chance at palming a basketball, and I have no problem reaching the standard size Sig trigger on my P226 for the DA stroke.

In my exerience, NIB Sigs are sprung like garage doors and the reset is longer than the buffet line at an AARP convention. I don't understand why Sigs are manufactured with such long reset, the SRT in the new Elite series addresses this problem though. I guess that's a step in the right direction.

As for the Sigs I use in IDPA and USPSA competitions, they have all been worked over by Bruce Gray. He started doing short reset work on Sigs a few years ago. The reset of my P226 is about 70% shorter than the factory. The DA and SA trigger pulls have also been lightened quite a bit. I have a lot of confidence in my equipment and that if I lose to someone shooting a Glock it's because he/she was a better shooter than me, not that my equipment failed me.

mattk

Not a flame, but I'm curious. What's the highest round count Sig you've got? I ask because they're pulling all of ours from the field due to high maintenance and failure rates. In July I went through a school and they had a bunch of failed 226 parts (major parts like slides) there that really surprised me and none of them had anywhere near the number of rounds through them compared with a typical IPSC/USPSA shooter. I'm not bashing Sigs in any way, but I'm not sure that they'll hold up to the really high round counts as well as some of their competition.

[HuskySig]

The P226ST has roughly 20,000 rounds.

The alloy frame P226 is just shy of 15,000 rounds. Unfortunately, the alloy P226 is going to be retired. The Nitron coated slide has destroyed the hard anodizing on the frame rails and is now wearing away the aluminum fairly quickly. The play between the frame and slide is getting to be large enough that the safety lever doesn't always push the firing pin block fully out of the firing pin's way. I've been having more and more light primer strikes as a result of this. The root of the problem came from using the wrong lubrication. I used TW-25B primarily, but it doesn't have enough viscosity to really stay where I put it. I figured that since a sample was packaged with my P226 that it should have been good enough. I learned an expensive lesson. Opps!

I know a couple of the SiGARMS sponsored shooters who have some very high round count pisols, greater than 250,000 rounds, and they are running like champions. I think proper lubrication can do a lot for extending the life of any pistol. I don't think this is limited to Sigs.

mattk

[al503]

In my opinion, the Sig high bore axis complaint is a myth perpetuated by shooters with bad a grip and poor follow through.

Let me preface the following with the fact that I started USPSA with a 226, which was my very first gun. It was 100% reliable and very accurate.

With that said, the bore axis 'complaint' can be supported by the simple laws of physics. The axis is indeed higher than a comparable glock, m&p, etc. I don't understand how this physically quantifiable and measureable fact can be characterized as a myth.

[moredes]

I prefer a 1911; I haven't found an action as easy to adapt to as the SA 1911's I've shot. The only difference from one to the next is their weight, which isn't noticeable at all from gun to gun during rapid fire.

1911 aftermarket parts are generally cheaper, readily available in all kinds of configurations, and a lot are easy 'kitchen-table' projects. I don't like the long trigger on the SIGs; I can adjust that on a 1911 with a cheap replacement part. Split times are faster for me with a 1911. Lastly, I find the bulkiness of the SIG tougher to hide than a 1911 for CCW.

[TNK]

Re: "The root of the problem came from using the wrong lubrication."

Unless you were using Crisco, I cannot accept this statement. Any grease designed for firearms should be appropriate on a decent service pistol. Sigarms has dropped the ball on quality control in recent years. This change is why your alloy frame 226 is done at 15,000 rounds. The rationalizations that one must now use the right lubrication on a Sig pistol are foolish. If a pistol cannot endure at least 50,000 rounds with the minimum maintainance as outlined in the owner's manual, it is defective. Now, I know the Sig cheerleaders will dispute this statement, but I do not care. I will not waste my time and money on any pistol that must use a particular brand of grease or oil to enjoy a long service life.

[sargenv]

I sometimes use a 229 for Production. I load 40 minor for it and it's fun to shoot. The only Glock I ever had was sold to a friend immediately since I needed something else. I'm debating what step to take next since I want to lay off Revolver for a few months. I figured out the other evening that I don't particularly care for Limited with major ammo, so it's either going to be open or Prod with my 229. I have an older model, it is about 9 years old. The only spring I've ever replaced on it is the slide spring. Replaced it with a 13# Wolff so I can shoot minor reliably. Everything besides the sights and that spring is stock.