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Why not Sig


cuzinvinny

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Maybe I am hardheaded, but I don't see why a Sig or HK can't be competitive with the Glocks, XD, and M&P. Don't get me wrong, I love shooting my XD9, but I just don't want to go into this sport using what the majority is already using ... Yada Yada Yada :D

I like the way you think - I shoot an HK in Production - and it is not a polymer.....

Gotta have some fun :cheers:

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Why not .... THe way I look at it, the Gun itself is like computer hardware, and ammo is like software. Over the long haul, the price of ammo or reloading cost should be a lot more worrisome than the initial sunk cost of the gun itself.

Maybe I am hardheaded, but I don't see why a Sig or HK can't be competitive with the Glocks, XD, and M&P. Don't get me wrong, I love shooting my XD9, but I just don't want to go into this sport using what the majority is already using ... but later if I find compelled to use a stiker fired to keep up, then of course I will consider a switch :D

Well, I'm certainly not going to tell you what to do, but I think that there's a lot of evidence out there that suggests most of the "other" guns aren't the best choice for most people. Sigs are popular guns, but they're not popular with USPSA shooters. If they really were an equal or better choice for a significant number of folks we'd be seeing them in more than token numbers.

The bore is very high compared with the grip so they're going to flip more, the controls are relatively clunky and the trigger just isn't going to be anywhere near as good as you can get with guns like the Glocks, M&Ps, XD's and CZ/EAA guns. If you want to buck the trend with an auto I'd say a CZ would be an awesome way to go....very nice guns with none of the drawbacks of the Sigs.

I don't think that you can really compare guns/ammo with computers. The gun and ammo are the hardware and the shooter is the software. The problem is that if the hardware isn't matched up well with the software you get less performance....and you can only change the software so much. Training and familiarity are one thing, but ergonomics of the gun just can't be changed enough to make a difference....especially in Production which is basically no change at all.

To make a comparison, I have to carry Glocks. I've got four of them. None of them fits my hand well, they beat my fingers to a pulp and they all point high for me. I can shoot them pretty well, but nowhere near as well as I can shoot a 1911/2011. No matter how much I train with them it's not going to get any better than a certain point and that's below what I'm capable of with other guns....just the way it is. I can shoot an XD a bit better than a Glock, but the M&P fits my hand a world better than either of them and would be my first choice if I shot Production. It might not be quite as good as a 1911 is for me, but close enough that it wouldn't be a huge hurdle. I've owned a Sig and shot many of them and there's no way I could shoot it even as well as a Glock. After handling a number of the HK's I wouldn't even bother trying to be competitive with one....it would just be annoying. R,

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I've had my hands on a couple of Sigs with pretty good triggers.....

.....come to think of it, they belonged to a guy who got his GM card shooting them --- Dave Olhasso. They might not be popular, you might have a smaller circle of smiths and parts suppliers, but if you're determined to shoot the Sig, have at it.

To quote another GM --- pick one and practice! -- Steve Anderson 200?

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I shoot a SIG SP2022 in .40 S&W for IDPA. If I can figure out the USPSA stuff, or Steel, or whatever else I'll probably use that until I find something that fits my hand as nicely as the large grip insert on the SP2022. The gun just fits my hand. I shot a Glock 34 in my first Glock match Saturday. Had fun, looking at Glocks. Looking at the SIG P250; the large grip is max width for IDPA and I like large!

Why not a SIG? Hmm...warranty not as good as Springfield Armory? Too many controls until you get to the P250? Lose several ounces for IDPA competition? Not as much after market support as Glock and 1911? Cost more than Glock?

At my shooting level the gun differences aren't the major issue. :roflol:

Leam

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Sigs are popular guns, but they're not popular with USPSA shooters. If they really were an equal or better choice for a significant number of folks we'd be seeing them in more than token numbers.

The bore is very high compared with the grip so they're going to flip more, the controls are relatively clunky and the trigger just isn't going to be anywhere near as good as you can get with guns like the Glocks, M&Ps, XD's and CZ/EAA guns.

I think there are a couple of reasons why Sigs aren't more popular in USPSA. The first being initial cost. You can almost buy two Glocks, two M&Ps or two XDs for the price of one brand new Sig. You are absolutely right in that if you already own a Sig and are interested in competing you'll start with it. Otherwise, if you're new to pistol shooting and new to competition you'll probably pick a less expensive platform.

Secondly would be the availability of parts for modifying trigger pull weight and reset. My impression of Glock is that there are several drop-in trigger kits that the do-it-yourself gun owner can install. Along with that, it seems like there are many gunsmiths around the country who can do basically whatever you can dream up. For Sigs there is only one guy, Bruce Gray. I'm not aware of any drop-in trigger kits for Sigs that would give the do-it-yourself guys some options.

Bart,

Until you've felt what Bruce Gray can do for a Sig, I wouldn't be so quick to judge how good a Sig trigger can be. :)

mattk

Edited by HuskySig
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.... If you want to buck the trend with an auto I'd say a CZ would be an awesome way to go....very nice guns with none of the drawbacks of the Sigs.

....

To make a comparison, I have to carry Glocks. I've got four of them. None of them fits my hand well, they beat my fingers to a pulp and they all point high for me. I can shoot them pretty well, but nowhere near as well as I can shoot a 1911/2011. No matter how much I train with them it's not going to get any better than a certain point and that's below what I'm capable of with other guns....just the way it is. I can shoot an XD a bit better than a Glock, but the M&P fits my hand a world better than either of them and would be my first choice if I shot Production. It might not be quite as good as a 1911 is for me, but close enough that it wouldn't be a huge hurdle. I've owned a Sig and shot many of them and there's no way I could shoot it even as well as a Glock. After handling a number of the HK's I wouldn't even bother trying to be competitive with one....it would just be annoying. R,

First thanks to your insightful post. You probably just point out something that tells why I plan to use a Sig to begin with. I own a CZ P-01 and Sig P229. I've owned the CZ longer and LOVE to shoot it, but I am not as accurate with it as my SIg. So even though I am decent with the CZ (I know it's not the SP-01), the Sig serves me better so far.

I also own a XD-9sc and let me tell you, I LOVE shooting it and I am pretty accurate with it as well. So I am not counting out a striker fired pistol at all. Unfortunately the XD9sc is my wife's gun so I don't get to shoot it that much.

I haven't had a chance to shoot any Hk much ... only the P30 briefly, so the jury is still out on the HK for me. I guess I'll just need to try them all to find the best, but since I am the most familiar with Sig, I also have the desire to help make it more visible in the local scene.

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Sigs are popular guns, but they're not popular with USPSA shooters. If they really were an equal or better choice for a significant number of folks we'd be seeing them in more than token numbers.

The bore is very high compared with the grip so they're going to flip more, the controls are relatively clunky and the trigger just isn't going to be anywhere near as good as you can get with guns like the Glocks, M&Ps, XD's and CZ/EAA guns.

I think there are a couple of reasons why Sigs aren't more popular in USPSA. The first being initial cost. You can almost buy two Glocks, two M&Ps or two XDs for the price of one brand new Sig. You are absolutely right in that if you already own a Sig and are interested in competing you'll start with it. Otherwise, if you're new to pistol shooting and new to competition you'll probably pick a less expensive platform.

Secondly would be the availability of parts for modifying trigger pull weight and reset. My impression of Glock is that there are several drop-in trigger kits that the do-it-yourself gun owner can install. Along with that, it seems like there are many gunsmiths around the country who can do basically whatever you can dream up. For Sigs there is only one guy, Bruce Gray. I'm not aware of any drop-in trigger kits for Sigs that would give the do-it-yourself guys some options.

Bart,

Until you've felt what Bruce Gray can do for a Sig, I wouldn't be so quick to judge how good a Sig trigger can be. :)

mattk

I'd have to say I'm not exactly convinced the cost has much to do with the lack of popularity for Sigs in USPSA. There are lots of folks that own them already and many/most buy something else once they've shot USPSA matches for a while. There has to be a reason for that. Cost certainly helps the popularity of some of the other guns, but I don't think it's that big a deal. If Sigs were the same price as they are now, but had ergonomics that fit most shooters, there would be a LOT more of them at matches since they're already a reliable design. If they were twice the price as they are now, but offered slightly better performance and ergonomics than the XDs, Glocks, M&Ps etc, you'd see a bunch of them at matches because people would be willing to pay for even a slightly better gun. None of that is the case. There might be a handful of people who can simply shoot a Sig better than any other gun out there, but I highly doubt it. It's a limitation of the design....if they kept everything else almost the same and lowered the bore relative to the grip, it would be a 100% improvement.

Until Sig comes out with a design based on a different overall platform style, they're not going to be the best, or even in the ballpark to it, for our sport.

Even without work, a stock Glock 34/35 has a pretty decent trigger....no need to really mess with it. The stock M&P trigger is okay and while the XD isn't terrible, isn't quite as good. Grab any one of those out of the box and you're looking at a gun that most anyone can take to the highest level. With a Sig, even tuned up, I think most people are eventually going to get to the point that the gun is holding them back....maybe not, but there's a lot of evidence that a lot of folks think the same way. R,

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With a Sig, even tuned up, I think most people are eventually going to get to the point that the gun is holding them back....maybe not, but there's a lot of evidence that a lot of folks think the same way.

I don't agree. My Sig P226 is not holding me back. At this point, I don't see why GM is out of the question with more dry and live fire practice. :)

mattk

Edited by HuskySig
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With a Sig, even tuned up, I think most people are eventually going to get to the point that the gun is holding them back....maybe not, but there's a lot of evidence that a lot of folks think the same way.

I don't agree. My Sig P226 is not holding me back. At this point, I don't see why GM is out of the question with more dry and live fire practice. :)

mattk

I wasn't suggesting it was holding back you, in particular. It's possible that you are in an very small group of people for which this is true. How much side-by-side comparison have you done with other guns to find out if your feeling is, in reality, a fact? Just because you like it, and are comfortable with it doesn't mean there isn't something that would be even better.

As I mentioned, I'm not a Glock fan, but I can shoot them pretty well. After a lot of experience and comparison, I KNOW they aren't the best gun for me, but that took quite a while to really determine. I actually bought the first one with the idea of using it for USPSA shooting and finally realized they just don't fit my hand well enough to ever be the best choice for me. Could I make GM with one? Maybe. Would it be easier with another gun? Definitely. No sense in making it harder than it has to be and Sigs have at least one disadvantage built into it that can't be worked around (high boreline). I don't see why anyone would intentionally pick something that has a basic shortcoming from the start when it's almost certain that there are other choices that would fit their hand equally well, but not have the same disadvantage(s). R,

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Here's the article that Ernest Langdon wrote about the DA/SA transaction. It put me in the right direction when I started competing with my P226.

Fear Not

Have you stuck with the Sig or moved to something else...I only ask because of your user name!

Everything in that article seems true, but only to a point and it seems overly simplified....reality is a lot more complex than what was described there. R,

Edited by G-ManBart
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...Sigs have at least one disadvantage built into it that can't be worked around (high boreline).

Please reread post #37 of this thread again. :)

mattk

No real need to re-read it. I did anyway and I don't see much to it except when he says "There are probably more shootable platforms, I'm sure."

I'm stuck in a hotel for weeks so I can't take any measurments, but I would love to see what the real measurments are. Let's see someone measure from the center of the boreline to the top of the trigger...not the middle or bottom as different trigger setups would skew the results, and see the difference between a 226, Glock 17/22/34/35 and a 1911 with a typical high-rise beavertail that we see on match guns. I just looked at my Open gun and it's a short, short ways from the center of the boreline to the top of the trigger...maybe an inch at most.

I've owned a Sig and shot many others over the years and you simply can't get your hand as high on them as you can with many other guns. At the end of the day if I shoot a 226 and a Glock 17 hell, make it a 19 so they're closer in size, with the same ammo, the Sig is going to flip more and be slower for me. I'm not in a minority here. Heck, even the Sig expert says there are more shootable platforms....that's exactly what we're talking about.

Does the shooter make more difference? Absolutely. Can the gun make a difference? Definitely. I don't know why someone would want to handicap themselves with anything other than the most shootable platform that they can find within the rules.

I don't have a dog in the fight since I'm not a Production shooter, but if I was, wouldn't it be in my favor for everyone to be shooting junk so it would be easier to beat them? I'm sure there are folks that want to compete and not worry about being competitive and that's cool too, but if someone is starting out and they want to be competitive, a Sig isn't likely to be the best choice almost any way you cut it. They can almost definitely find something that will fit their hand as well or better, cost less and be more shootable....that's a lot to overcome. R,

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Just to bring up an ugly point that hasn't arisen yet, let's get serious about our skill levels. All the whoopty-do about borelines and recoil patterns add up to what, .01 difference per split? Perform one smoking reload and you've cancelled out half the match's difference for a sub-M shooter. Shoot what you have until you can't beat a GM because he's splitting faster than you, then worry about equipment. I can run a .16 split out of my G35, but I sure as heck can't use it yet. I just can't see it. But I have a solid .20 I should be saving on my draws, a couple of seconds on my positions, and probably .5 or more on my reloads. Oddly, all of these things are only correctable by practice, not equipment.

H.

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I guess your analysis is reason for even more celebration when I beat the masses of Glock, M&P and XD shooters. Since I'm shooting a sub-standard platform. :)

mattk

Right on. Sigs are a fine choice in my book.

:cheers:

Ben,

Someday I hope to be able to run my P226 nearly as well as you run your Beretta!

:cheers:

mattk

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The King of the trigger cocking handgun is Jerry Miculek. I believe he once attempted speed shooting with some variation of a Sig and couldn't make noise with the Sig as fast as he could make noise and HIT with a DA revolver. He maintained that the mechanics of the Sig were all wrong; too long and trigger pull and way too weak a return.

Langdon has the DA auto figured out best of all, or at least articulates its manipulation better. Jeff Cooper claimed in print that the right way to shoot a DA auto was to reposition the trigger finger after firing the first DA shot. I always felt that was wrong. Then Langdon explained how to do it in a much more efficient manner and his success seems to prove that his method is most sound.

Dave Sinko

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Langdon has the DA auto figured out best of all, or at least articulates its manipulation better. Jeff Cooper claimed in print that the right way to shoot a DA auto was to reposition the trigger finger after firing the first DA shot. I always felt that was wrong. Then Langdon explained how to do it in a much more efficient manner and his success seems to prove that his method is most sound.

I'm curious... could you describe this method?

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I guess your analysis is reason for even more celebration when I beat the masses of Glock, M&P and XD shooters. Since I'm shooting a sub-standard platform. :)

:o

mattk

I'm sure it would be. "beat the masses"....someone could read that, go look at actual match results and be a little confused. Looks like the guy beating the masses up there is a CZ shooter (shot the Double Tap with him and he's awfully good).

Edit to add: Just saw the comment that Jerry M had issues with a Sig...yikes, if he can't make one run like a scalded cat, that's saying a lot :o

Edited by G-ManBart
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I'm sure it would be. "beat the masses"....someone could read that, go look at actual match results and be a little confused. Looks like the guy beating the masses up there is a CZ shooter (shot the Double Tap with him and he's awfully good).

Yes he is fast. Four division GMs tend to be that fast. ;) I may not be winning any local matches yet, but most of the time I can hold my own against the four Production GMs in the area. My time will come!

mattk

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I'm sure it would be. "beat the masses"....someone could read that, go look at actual match results and be a little confused. Looks like the guy beating the masses up there is a CZ shooter (shot the Double Tap with him and he's awfully good).

Yes he is fast. Four division GMs tend to be that fast. ;) I may not be winning any local matches yet, but most of the time I can hold my own against the four Production GMs in the area. My time will come!

mattk

Whether or not your time comes, we know the gun isnt holding you back.

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