Why not Sig

[SiG Lady]

What moredes said. Especially about the trigger travel. It's why I sold both of mine.

And you ALL know how I feel about 1911s.

[STUGOTSIG]

My 226, like Husksig's, has been worked over at GrayGuns. It started life as a DAK in 357SIG for carry. I got really into the gaming and decided to have this built as my Production Gun. Bruce and Co. fitted a Bar-Sto 9mm bbl., replaced the DAK system with a TDA system, Dawson/Warren sight set, and did a complete action job (Competition Reset Packege).

The DA pull is between 6.5 and 7.0 lbs. and, as HS has mentioned, reset is 70% shorter than factory. It's not 1911 short (that's an entirely different platform) but it's very short compared to my WG P226.

One thing GrayGuns does with the Nitron/SS finish to alleviate excessive wear on the Al frame is to "soften" or polish the Nitron up to reduce wear. I use Shooters Choice Red Grease (liberally) and, although I've got ~5000 rounds down it, there is absolutely no wear.

I had an opportunity to shoot a CZSP01 yesterday as I'm tinkering with buying/trying one for Production. (A P210 is not in my price range )

I was able to put 10 in the head at 30'! Grips nicely, good and weighty, sweet pistol...only thing I noticed was the sear reset seemed like a mile compared to my GGI226. Even longer than my WG P226.

My SiG shoots by and far better than the nut-job running it.

I'm keeping mine

[98sr20ve]

I had an opportunity to shoot a CZSP01 yesterday as I'm tinkering with buying/trying one for Production. (A P210 is not in my price range )

I was able to put 10 in the head at 30'! Grips nicely, good and weighty, sweet pistol...only thing I noticed was the sear reset seemed like a mile compared to my GGI226. Even longer than my WG P226.

Was the CZ Stock?

[STUGOTSIG]

I had an opportunity to shoot a CZSP01 yesterday as I'm tinkering with buying/trying one for Production. (A P210 is not in my price range )

I was able to put 10 in the head at 30'! Grips nicely, good and weighty, sweet pistol...only thing I noticed was the sear reset seemed like a mile compared to my GGI226. Even longer than my WG P226.

Was the CZ Stock?

It was purchased as a stock pistol and then sent off to Angus for work. What work, I don't know. It still had 3-dot sights so, I figure some kind of action work.

I'd buy the "Angused" SP01 from him in lieu of a stock one and sending it off IMO.

I'm not bashing anyone's work or platform. It was just an observation from my 226 to the SP01. I still plan on aquiring an "angused" SP

Edited October 2, 2007 by STUGOTSIG

[shred]

A few pictures of the Sig table at the EHC (thanks to Lab):

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3089...159&l=42581

[ShooterSteve]

I've never fired a Sig, but I shot a HK usp for a while in three gun matches. I figured shooting a HK was going to be so cool. Going from a 1911, to a long and hard DA first pull followed by the SA shots really messed with me. Also, there were no parts available, and extra mags cost a fortune. I sold it and bought a glock and never looked back. Like I said, I haven't shot the sig, and I hear that they are nice, but it seems like a lot of the problems with the HK, are the same with the Sig. Why buy a gun for competitive games, and then have to learn to master the DA/SA split, when it is so much easier to buy a platform like a 1911 or a glock, where everything is consistant. With that said, I will echo what others have said, if you like Sigs, shoot them forever. If that is what you allready have, come out to the matches and have a great time, learn the game, enjoy shooting, and in the process if you see that it may be easier to be competitive with a different style of gun, you can make an educated purchase which is right for you. Just like racing cars, this is a game, and different games will favor different styles and platforms. Have fun in your search!!

[Carlos]

The sig is a strong design. It should be able to handle 9mm Major with ease. I hope that Open X-5s make some inroads on the dominance of World Champ Graufel's Tanfoglio & all the SV/STI/SPS/Imbel guns out there. Would be nice to see some competition between manufacturers & more choices for us shooters.

[leam]

My opinion, and currently one that I'm struggling with, is that some pistols are better for competition not because they start better, but because there's enough aftermarket support that they can be made to fit with a larger number of shooters. The 1911 has it's strengths and challenges, but there's pretty much nothing on it that can't be changed a few ways. You as a shooter get to conform the gun to you.

With SIGs, and probably many other guns, they are great in themselves and if they fit your body and shooting style then you're set. However, if you need something different, you're generally out of luck.

Leam

[scorpiusdeus]

I shoot a P226ST .40 S&W in Production. I have to agree on the trigger, but I'm such a bad shot I don't know that that would matter that much to me

I did buy an XD wanting to keep up with the Glock guys, but in reality t needs work. I keep meaning to send it in to Springer, but I keep spending all my money on ammo.

Still I prefer to shoot what I would normally carry so its the P226, but I did shoot the P239 in .40 S&W as well.

[DaG]

I shot a X5 single action the other day and noticed the grip was/seemed to me considerably smaller. Is this due to the single action controls? If not, does the X5 Allround production gun have a smaller grip than a standard 226 and would those grips fit a standard 226 ?

TIA

DaG

[DaG]

You know, after reading this thread I was worried about the muzzle flip/high bore axis and all the other negative stuff that has been said. Well I shot an IDPA match today (hell has frozen over BTW) and did fairly well with the gun. I shoot production with a CZ so the double action pull was a non issue. As long as your grip, stance, front sight focus are good, there's no reason why a 226 can't be used in either sport and do well with it. I had shot Gilbert Perez's 226 when he shot for Sig and I had complained about what I percieved as a "flippy" gun. He looked at me and said "look at your hits". The shots were tight and all A zone. Maybe my grip has changed for the better lately, cause when shooting today I did not notice the "flip". The gun tracked straight up and down. Maybe my focus and awareness has changed to the point where it doesn't matter what I shoot. The Sig was a pleasure to shoot and I personally think that the urban legends about the 226 are just that. YMMV.......

DaG

[grayguns]

Hi, Folks

I'm getting here late, but thought I'd add a few comments.

Several of you have mentioned the high bore axis of the P-sereis SIG Sauer as a negative. I was also freaked about this when I first started shooting the HK USPF9, and later I projected my distaste for high-axis rocket-powered pogo sticks to the P226 when I went to SIGARMS. Well, sometimes a caliper will prove things, but sometimes those things don't matter anyhow. In this case, it's a bit of both. The USPF9 bounces like a Chinese gymnanst on acid compared to many other service pistols, but the ostensibly similarly configured P226 does not. +.20 splits represented the dark boundaries of known spacetime with the HK where anything faster was uncertain, whereas .16's were like home with my (correctly set up) P226. This has more to do with slide mass, lockup values, springing and that damned integral recoil buffer of the HK, than with simple bore axis.

Most of us agree the 1911 is a fairly decent platform for speed shooting.

If one measures the actual bore line to hand web on a P226 versus that of a 1911, you will find them comparable. Indeed, a 1911's bore axis is likely higher, depending upon what manner of beavertail it's fitted with. As well, 1911's and other Browning lockup designs direct the center of recoil force even higher still due to the downward angle of the locked barrel in relation to the frame rails / grip. For these reasons among many, the P-series SIG Sauer is far more shootable than it looks.

There are probably more shootable platforms, I'm sure. At my level of skill when I retired from competition in 2004, I don't think those differences would have meant much, but neither could I have exploited them well enough to make a practical difference. After 30 years of focusing on the tools, I came late to realize what I always knew: the shooter is what matters anyway.

That may not mean a shooter is likely to win against all comers with a S&W Sigma, but it may mean that the more subtle differences between top-quality service pistols in such areas as action manipulation, ergonomics, bore axis and such are more within the realm of personal preferences that different shooters will exploit to advantage with some amount of effort.

As for durability, this varies between models and calibers, with maintenance being the key variable. Alloy framed P226's are generally very durable, but they must be run wet with a sticky, persistent lube. We use Enos Slide Glide here at Grayguns Inc. LOTS of the stuff. Assuming your P226 is set up correctly and the slide has been smoothed to ensure minimal abrasion on the frame rails, you can expect at least 75,000 of 128 PF competition loads, in my experience. We have the benefit of seeing and tracking many pistols (we'll have over 400 invoices in 2007, 85% being SIG Sauer pistol work), and I'm confident in this statement.

There is nothing about the P226 that I find objectionable for Production, given training effort and setup. I'm still carrying the old stamped-slide P226 9mm on duty that I shot in Production as my last IPSC gun, and after at least 80,000 I still trust it. Yeah, it rattles, but it sure does run.

Thanks for letting me weigh in here.

-Bruce

[Chills1994]

Didn't Ernest Langdon win IDPA Nat's a few years ago, say 2003 or 2004, with a Sig?

Yeah, I would have to agree that for a lot of people, getting used to the DA/SA transition is WORK. Let's face it, people are lazy and they'd rather have a gun that shoots the same or feels the same every time, hence the popularity of the Glocks, the XD's and the M&P's.

I picked up a Beretta almost 2 years ago (because they stopped making those particular models ) and shot it exclusively in Production and IDPA's SSP division. Yes, it took some getting used. A "D" spring helps. I'm sure there has to be similar spring for Sigs.

In my learning curve of the DA/SA transition, there were cycles:

1. This DA first shot really sucks.

2. Man! I really like this in SA!

3. Hmmn.... I wish this thing was DA all the time. Weird!

4. Okay, now, I'm used to it.

IDPA's latest Tactical Journal included the results from the 2007 IDPA Nat's equipment survey. There were on 10 Sigs there, and only 11 Beretta's.

I've posted this on other forums, but there were 106 Glocks, 115 1911 type platforms, and IIRC 37 revolver shooters.

344 competitors total.

Thanks, Bruce, for chiming in. I always enjoy seeing you on Michael Bane's Shooting Gallery.

[CPUFIXER]

Hi, Folks

I'm getting here late, but thought I'd add a few comments.

Several of you have mentioned the high bore axis of the P-sereis SIG Sauer as a negative. I was also freaked about this when I first started shooting the HK USPF9, and later I projected my distaste for high-axis rocket-powered pogo sticks to the P226 when I went to SIGARMS. Well, sometimes a caliper will prove things, but sometimes those things don't matter anyhow. In this case, it's a bit of both. The USPF9 bounces like a Chinese gymnanst on acid compared to many other service pistols, but the ostensibly similarly configured P226 does not. +.20 splits represented the dark boundaries of known spacetime with the HK where anything faster was uncertain, whereas .16's were like home with my (correctly set up) P226. This has more to do with slide mass, lockup values, springing and that damned integral recoil buffer of the HK, than with simple bore axis.

Most of us agree the 1911 is a fairly decent platform for speed shooting.

If one measures the actual bore line to hand web on a P226 versus that of a 1911, you will find them comparable. Indeed, a 1911's bore axis is likely higher, depending upon what manner of beavertail it's fitted with. As well, 1911's and other Browning lockup designs direct the center of recoil force even higher still due to the downward angle of the locked barrel in relation to the frame rails / grip. For these reasons among many, the P-series SIG Sauer is far more shootable than it looks.

There are probably more shootable platforms, I'm sure. At my level of skill when I retired from competition in 2004, I don't think those differences would have meant much, but neither could I have exploited them well enough to make a practical difference. After 30 years of focusing on the tools, I came late to realize what I always knew: the shooter is what matters anyway.

That may not mean a shooter is likely to win against all comers with a S&W Sigma, but it may mean that the more subtle differences between top-quality service pistols in such areas as action manipulation, ergonomics, bore axis and such are more within the realm of personal preferences that different shooters will exploit to advantage with some amount of effort.

As for durability, this varies between models and calibers, with maintenance being the key variable. Alloy framed P226's are generally very durable, but they must be run wet with a sticky, persistent lube. We use Enos Slide Glide here at Grayguns Inc. LOTS of the stuff. Assuming your P226 is set up correctly and the slide has been smoothed to ensure minimal abrasion on the frame rails, you can expect at least 75,000 of 128 PF competition loads, in my experience. We have the benefit of seeing and tracking many pistols (we'll have over 400 invoices in 2007, 85% being SIG Sauer pistol work), and I'm confident in this statement.

There is nothing about the P226 that I find objectionable for Production, given training effort and setup. I'm still carrying the old stamped-slide P226 9mm on duty that I shot in Production as my last IPSC gun, and after at least 80,000 I still trust it. Yeah, it rattles, but it sure does run.

Thanks for letting me weigh in here.

-Bruce

I just shot a match using my X-5 comp in 9mm (lim/minor) that I had Grayguns work on and I did suprisingly well. Shot 4 out 6 stages clean. I can no longer blame the gun!

[shooting4fun]

Howdy Cuzinvinny, and et al.,

Hope you and everyone else were able to enjoy the Thanksgiving holiday. Just happened to browse this thread and thought I would chime in with my experiences. There are several folks that shoot the regional monthly club matches with SIGs including an individual who uses an X5. He is constantly reminding himself, “ I have a safety...” as he walks up and preps for the Load and Make Ready. They all do well in the club matches.

I have not seen any folks run them at the larger matches.

I purchased a certified pre-owned SIG 226 about a year ago. I've enjoyed shooting it once I got all the accessories necessary. ( sights, holster, mags, etc..) The CPO SIG was a much more affordable way to get one. I find my SIG more comfortable to shoot vs. my Glocks, this is due to the grip. When I'm done shooting matches with the Glock my hand is fatigued from the shooting. Not so much when running with the SIG.

The DA/SA thing is not an issue for me as I'm pretty much with Bruce on trigger prep being a good thing regardless of platform. I like variety in shooting so I tend to shoot lots of different platforms with really varied triggers so for me, no big deal. Still got to prep the trigger and align the sights or is that reverse in order....??... oh well, they all shoot and they are all fun to shoot!

Cost as a factor? Maybe, but when you realize the full cost of the high end 1911 patterns compared with the price of the X5, both are very close. Also from the X5 owners that I've talked to, their X5s don't see a gunsmith before running them. So I just don't see the cost thing being a strong issue.

Complicated to operate? Not really, just as learning any platform you could argue engaging a manual safety at the LAMR is similar to the de-cocking action.

Complicated to maintain? Yup! In getting into the IPSC/USPSA type shooting I've learned to maintain my sidearms myself. This level of maintenance goes beyond the basic field strip. The SIG with all the pins, springs and parts / pieces is daunting at first. As with most things if you have taken the time to arm yourself with good knowledge, and good tools things are not out of the question. Yes, those parts and pieces can add up to money if you loose, or have to replace them. My pistol has held up nicely. So far I've been able to find all those fly away pieces...

So why not so many SIGs at the matches? I don't know why. They run well and are very comfortable to shoot. I can only guess that other patterns are somewhat cheaper to get into a basic shooting setup with. < gun, holster, mags, mag holder > In my case I can drive my Glock a bit faster over the SIG but there is not that much of a difference to say that one is better than another, just different. I like both patterns and will continue to shoot both patterns. Good luck in your quest for knowledge!

Cheers!

[G-ManBart]

So why not so many SIGs at the matches? I don't know why. They run well and are very comfortable to shoot. I can only guess that other patterns are somewhat cheaper to get into a basic shooting setup with. < gun, holster, mags, mag holder > In my case I can drive my Glock a bit faster over the SIG but there is not that much of a difference to say that one is better than another, just different.

Several of the Sig models could be competitive in Production class with the right person behind them. With that said, there are a couple of things that probably keep them from being more popular. They're more expensive than the Glocks, XD's, and M&P's, they have a higher bore in relation to the grip than those I just listed and for most people the DA/SA trigger isn't as easy to adapt to as a straight DA trigger. I'm guessing that for most people one or more of those reasons is the deciding factor. In short, the Sig has too many potential liabilities compared with the alternatives. If you don't have the extra cash, it's out. If you don't like the trigger system, it's out. If you don't like the way it recoils because of the grip/bore relation, it's out.

If someone already owns a Sig and wants to shart shooting USPSA, it's not an issue and they'll probably have a good time. If someone is looking to get into USPSA shooting and they don't already own a suitable gun, it's not really likely that they'll buy a Sig to start with for one or all of the reasons listed. That's going to keep the numbers pretty low.

The X-5 could be competitive in Limited-10, but it really is a bit pricey when compared with some of the alternatives and there is so much less support for it in terms of gear and accessories, I can't see too many people deciding to go that path. Not only that, but if you spend a similar amount of money on the other brands/models (S_I/Para/etc) you get a gun that can be competitive in Limited as well.

The X-5 simply isn't competitive in Limited....nobody makes a 19, 20 or 21 round mag for it and that's going to keep almost everyone from using them.

It's not that they're bad guns, but it seems like with any of them there's something or a couple of things that will keep most people from using them in our matches.

[HuskySig]

The X-5 simply isn't competitive in Limited....nobody makes a 19, 20 or 21 round mag for it and that's going to keep almost everyone from using them.

Roger Sherman designed and sells mouse trap extensions for X-5 magazines. He claims capacities of 18 rounds of .40 S&W and 24 rounds of 9mm. That should help to make the X-5 more competitive in Limited.

mattk

[SA Friday]

Roger Sherman is probably the best of the Sig shooters in USPSA, shooting a P226 in Production. He's scary accurate with it.

I carry an M-11 (Sig P228) as my duty weapon. I shoot Glocks primarily for USPSA. They just fit me better. Many of my co-workers have shot their M-11's at matches, and the ones that have taken up USPSA have switched to Glocks. The switch was because the glocks are cheaper and easier to do your own modifications on. They also have preferred the DAO over the DA/SA trigger.

You can go as far as you want with a Sig, but I think many feel it's easier to get better faster with other platforms. The gun does make a difference in the speed of the learning curve. If it didn't, we would all still be toting browning hi-powers and 1911's.

I know two people shooting 226's in USPSA and they are very competative with them. Hell, one is Roger... But, I think the alure of the DAO trigger and cheaper costs are just too tempting for someone starting out.

[Chills1994]

cuzinvinny wrote:

So why does Sig name seem so absent?

(sarcasm)

Because they don't make one in 10mm!

(Sig Forum inside joke, by the way)

[Rayden]

I am bringing this old thread back because I am contemplating starting USPSA Production soon and I've been shooting DA/SA most of my shooting life. I want to use a P226 or a HK P30 for this cause. Like most things I do I like to buck the trend so I've decided not to go with a Glock.

With that being said, would anyone recommend getting a regular 226 and have Gray Guns install the competition package, or get the P266 ST Elite? What about the HK P30? It's a sweet shooter at the range can it be competitive?

I currently shoot a P229 and I am pretty accurate with it.

[EricW]

Definitely let Gray work over the 226.

[bdpaz]

Something to consider on the GrayGuns competition package. I had them do the full bore competition package on a 229 Elite and the single action pull is incredibly light and crisp but that has actually caused a problem for me. It may well just be me but now the reach to the trigger seems too short. It falls naturally on the first joint but I don't have enough control and would like to use the pad of my fingertip but that requires some grip contortions I'm not comfortable with. The reach is fine with a stock 229 where I need a little more strength but now it feels like the Sig short trigger which I didn't like.

Just to be clear, they didn't change the length to the trigger - it just feels short to me now with the lighter, crisper break. If you are in the Phoenix area I'd be happy to let you try it out.

Brad

Edited May 27, 2008 by bdpaz

[David Sinko]

I am forced to use a 229 (early DAO and now DAK) as a duty gun and I have nothing good to say about them. They are extremely difficult to shoot well and feel all wrong in the hand. I tried some that had been extensively tricked out and there was still nothing that could be done to improve the long trigger pull. I feel that anybody who can shoot these guns well can shoot ANYTHING else much better. Well, anything except maybe a Ruger.

I believe the Safe Inefficient Gun was designed primarily for poorly trained law enforcement personnel who can not be trusted with anything else. Just look at any Sig ad and count how many times they use the word "safety." To hell and back reliability? I had a few stoppages with mine that I couldn't figure out. I hated my original duty gun so much that I refused to buy it when we transitioned, even for the sentimental value after I had earned a bit of notoriety with it.

Dave Sinko

[G-ManBart]

I am bringing this old thread back because I am contemplating starting USPSA Production soon and I've been shooting DA/SA most of my shooting life. I want to use a P226 or a HK P30 for this cause. Like most things I do I like to buck the trend so I've decided not to go with a Glock.

With that being said, would anyone recommend getting a regular 226 and have Gray Guns install the competition package, or get the P266 ST Elite? What about the HK P30? It's a sweet shooter at the range can it be competitive?

I currently shoot a P229 and I am pretty accurate with it.

You're going to BUY a Sig to use in USPSA Production division? Everyone I know that's used a Sig for USPSA did so because they already had one or it was a duty weapon...at least as far as I can recall.

<insert chuckle and good nature> Dude, that's not bucking the trend, that's bucking crazy!

I'm not a fan of DAO/SAO guns, but if I had to pick one for Production, I'd probably suggest a Beretta 92/96 (carried one for six years). Much easier to shoot well, even in my experience. R,

[Rayden]

I am bringing this old thread back because I am contemplating starting USPSA Production soon and I've been shooting DA/SA most of my shooting life. I want to use a P226 or a HK P30 for this cause. Like most things I do I like to buck the trend so I've decided not to go with a Glock.

With that being said, would anyone recommend getting a regular 226 and have Gray Guns install the competition package, or get the P266 ST Elite? What about the HK P30? It's a sweet shooter at the range can it be competitive?

I currently shoot a P229 and I am pretty accurate with it.

You're going to BUY a Sig to use in USPSA Production division? Everyone I know that's used a Sig for USPSA did so because they already had one or it was a duty weapon...at least as far as I can recall.

<insert chuckle and good nature> Dude, that's not bucking the trend, that's bucking crazy!

I'm not a fan of DAO/SAO guns, but if I had to pick one for Production, I'd probably suggest a Beretta 92/96 (carried one for six years). Much easier to shoot well, even in my experience. R,

Why not .... THe way I look at it, the Gun itself is like computer hardware, and ammo is like software. Over the long haul, the price of ammo or reloading cost should be a lot more worrisome than the initial sunk cost of the gun itself.

Maybe I am hardheaded, but I don't see why a Sig or HK can't be competitive with the Glocks, XD, and M&P. Don't get me wrong, I love shooting my XD9, but I just don't want to go into this sport using what the majority is already using ... but later if I find compelled to use a stiker fired to keep up, then of course I will consider a switch