2007 IDPA Nationals Underway

[Bucky]

An small, but interesting aspect of that Stage was the decision to reload or not before going prone. At the start signal, you engaged two targets with two rounds each, then went prone. If you shoot the stage clean, then you need to only expend 10 rounds (four paper, two metal "legs"). But if you have more than one miss on those legs and didn't tac-reload before going prone, then you are going to have to do a prone reload (those legs were 3" wide, angled away from you, and about 10 yards down range...not the biggest targets in the world). If you are ESP or SSP, do you tac-reload or not before going prone? I saw lots of competitors take the insurance and reload before going down, but ironically, I didn't pay attention when the superstars on my squad (Sevigny, Langdon, etc.) went through the stage. Again, minor but interesting.

-Jim

My guess is Sevigny and Langdon did a tac load before going down. Remember, they are CDP and only have 9 rounds in the gun for a 10 round course of fire. I can confirm that this is how Dave Olhasso shot it.

[rvb]

What did people think of the Newbold targets? My squad had trouble with them in regards to bullets going right through them without them falling over.

I had to take a 2nd shot on 2 of the 5 present in the match... I called good hits on both and they were all pretty close. Maybe I missed, maybe the rounds went right through.... who knows. I'd rather not see them for that reason. Especially on Stage 2 where they just simulated the -0 on a regular target... painted hard-cover on all but the -0 would have had the same scoring effect.

-rvb

[Greg Bell]

I bought some of the "hanging" Newbold targets and was less than impressed. They barely twitch when shot I only used them twice. I had planned on using them as a poor mans "plate rack" for practice.

[mikegot38]

Great match, my first nationals and I really enjoyed it. One question though. What did people think of the Newbold targets? My squad had trouble with them in regards to bullets going right through them without them falling over. This happened to a few shooters in my squad. You could see them move and spin as they were hit but they did not go down. On stage 2 we were told they had to fall and mine spun about 45 degrees and I went back and shot it again before I advanced. Then a few shooters later the same thing happened and the shooter kept on going. The SO said it moved and gave him credit for the hit. I'm not going to argue for a penalty for another shooter but I would rather not see them again at this level.

Let me start by saying that I thought the match was outstanding from the Ted, the match director, to the set up crew to the SO and all who helped at the match. My comment about the Newbolds could not have been printed prior to shooting at them. I shoot 38 super and often my jacketed rounds go right through. These targets were all sufficiently new when I shot at them so I had no issues. Personally, I prefer steel bu lets face it, steel is not an option inside or really up close and personal like they would have been used at this match. I would say that in this case, the newbold targets worked well.

I only hope that the Nationals are at the same venue next year!!!

[Gryff]

Great match, my first nationals and I really enjoyed it. One question though. What did people think of the Newbold targets? My squad had trouble with them in regards to bullets going right through them without them falling over. This happened to a few shooters in my squad. You could see them move and spin as they were hit but they did not go down. On stage 2 we were told they had to fall and mine spun about 45 degrees and I went back and shot it again before I advanced. Then a few shooters later the same thing happened and the shooter kept on going. The SO said it moved and gave him credit for the hit. I'm not going to argue for a penalty for another shooter but I would rather not see them again at this level.

We were told in the low-light stage (Stage 15) that if the Newbolds didn't fall, they were a Miss. Therefore, shoot it until it is down.

If shoots were going through it without knocking it down for some shooters, then that is a problem at a big match like this. But I had no difficulties with any of them personally.

-Jim

[ima45dv8]

I don't think it's been mentioned yet that one of the highlights of the match was during the awards ceremony where Ted thanked the host club and its key members for all their hard work and cooperation, even though they are a USPSA affiliate and not an IDPA club. I believe his words were "look what can happen when we work together." If you know Ted Murphy, you know they were said with great sincerity.

Kevin

No doubt. Ted's a great example of working to better shooting sports, regardless of the letters used to identify them.

[Steve Moneypenny]

I really can't see any need for "non official" targets in a national championship.. half sized 3" leg targets.... come on that's just a rules of the day match. not something for a nationals.

As for CDP shooters on that stage.. wouldn't they have had to reload? Someone said it was a 10 round stage.

Donnie Burton has discovered ..... umm. for a better word ladies.. in fact he has a very lovely and nice mannered girlfriend that is also in college. I met her at one of the local club matches I used to frequent before I ran out of time between majors. His home club is the Ft. Harmar rifle club in Marietta, Ohio

Thanks for the reviews guys. makes me wish i was there.

[Steve Moneypenny]

I forgot to mention.

The super squad don't just "seem to know" they do know exactly to the second what needs to be done, with usually up to the minute results, barring any outside shooters. which is really scarry when you've never been there before and on the squad your first time at USPSA nats!

[Gryff]

I really can't see any need for "non official" targets in a national championship.. half sized 3" leg targets.... come on that's just a rules of the day match. not something for a nationals.

I disagree. The scenario was a valid defensive situation (it was designed by Walt Rauch, who is not known for being a gamer), and it added an unusual and challenging aspect to the stage.

Additionally, the IDPA rules don't mandate an "official" shape for steel targets. The rulebook says, "Various steel targets, such as 8” round discs, Pepper Poppers, etc.,

can occasionally be used for IDPA competition." Although it gives examples, it doesn't mandate them. (Appendix 9, Section C)

To me, this seemed like a stage that was actually more appropriate for a Nationals. Simple, clever, and very demanding on basic accuracy skills.

-Jim

[Fireant]

I still can't accept having to shoot at something that is not a scoring target. That does not seem like something for a Nationals sized match to me.

[00bullitt]

Well.......if you don't shoot it......you won't get to shoot the scoring target

[ima45dv8]

I think it sounds kinda cool.

Besides, everybody had to do it.

[RePete]

The stage in question was Stage 6, written and lived by Walt Rauch. There are two targets to the right of the car engaged from cover while standing. Then, the shooter must go prone and shoot out the black leg of each far target. When the leg is hit, the target falls sideways and the shooter must put two rounds into the cardboard. There's no specified order for the far targets other than the leg must be shot before the cardboard. It was a fun stage with a trap set for revolver shooters.

I was shooting a revolver, and that stage didn't help.

The supports were 4" wide, but on a 45 degree ange, making them 2" wide, BUT, when I went prone they looked like were 1/2" wide.

As for the chrono, I was told, in the stats shack, that there was a problem with inconsistancy with it on Wednesday, so it was discarded.

[Fireant]

I understand the idea, but why not use a common plate that you also score to activate the targets. do we now need to start practicing shooting the 2inch side of 2X4's at ten yards as a practice drill? I believe the rule book says not to use the everybody had to do it reason to justify something.

[rubberneck]

I thought that was one of the coolest stages at the match. I just wish I could get Ken Reed to make those targets for our club. It doesn't matter to me what shape the steel is just as long as it presents a test of the shooters skill. In this case it clearly did. The good shooters knocked them down quickly. The less skilled shooters paid for their inaccuracy.

[Gregg K]

I was shooting a revolver, and that stage didn't help.

The supports were 4" wide, but on a 45 degree ange, making them 2" wide, BUT, when I went prone they looked like were 1/2" wide.

Same here, I was also shooting a round gun. I did a tac load before going down and shifted into low gear to get both legs out first and then the paper. The last thing that I wanted was to miss the legs and have do reload on my belly. The further to the right that you placed your head when you went down made the right leg a little easier to shoot but it was still a thinner target than the left side. Got it done and breathed a sigh of relief.

[Gryff]

Same here, I was also shooting a round gun. I did a tac load before going down and shifted into low gear to get both legs out first and then the paper. The last thing that I wanted was to miss the legs and have do reload on my belly. The further to the right that you placed your head when you went down made the right leg a little easier to shoot but it was still a thinner target than the left side. Got it done and breathed a sigh of relief.

I was shooting ESP, but I kept asking myself if I wanted to tac-reload before going prone. Theoretically, I had enough rounds without reloading...

Finally decided that this is the Nationals and not time to play it safe. But I remember thinking, "I'm an idiot" as I was going down on my belly. The BANG...PING and BANG...PING that immediately followed were probably the sweetest sounds I heard all match.

As for scoring...I don't remember if the legs were considered targets. I'll check my match book tonight to see what it says.

-Jim

Edited October 2, 2007 by Gryff

[ima45dv8]

I believe the rule book says not to use the everybody had to do it reason to justify something.

Quite true. Please forgive my momentary lapse of reason (isn't that a song lyric?).

[shooterready]

Same here, I was also shooting a round gun. I did a tac load before going down and shifted into low gear to get both legs out first and then the paper. The last thing that I wanted was to miss the legs and have do reload on my belly. The further to the right that you placed your head when you went down made the right leg a little easier to shoot but it was still a thinner target than the left side. Got it done and breathed a sigh of relief.

I was shooting ESP, but I kept asking myself if I wanted to tac-reload before going prone. Theoretically, I had enough rounds without reloading...

Finally decided that this is the Nationals and not time to play it safe. But I remember thinking, "I'm an idiot" as I was going down on my belly. The BANG...PING and BANG...PING that immediately followed were probably the sweetest sounds I heard all match.

As for scoring...I don't remember if the legs were considered targets. I'll check my match book tonight to see what it says.

-Jim

This stage was great. I burned my extra 11th round on the 1st static threat before going prone without a reload. Had to make up a 1 down hit, silly boy. Can you imagine what I was saying to myself when I hit the ground? All was well, bang tink, bank tink, a beautiful sound indeed!

Shooterready

[shooterready]

Congratulations to all the Michigan shooters who kicked butt at the 2007 IDPA Nats this year in Allentown, PA.

CDP – Master

9th – 229.65 (30) – Dr. Chris Martin (Iowa)

ESP – Expert

11th – 262.86 (41) – Ric Gallaway

ESP – Sharpshooter

9th – 318.03 (104) – Nick Bies

33rd – 379.79 (135) – Franco Danna

37th – 476.09 (126) – Bob Carr

SSP – Master

9th – 239.12 (61) – Dick Lichon

29th – 288.25 (76) – Chad Marthey

SSP – Expert

6th – 268.88 (64) – Jack Calcut

19th – 310.99 (82) – Greg Panzl

SSP – Sharpshooter

9th – 327.27 (103) – Cindy Plant

18th – 356.70 (79) – Dave Zimmerman (Ohio)

SSP – Marksman

2nd – 336.42 (123) – Mike Barrera

12th – 455.96 (180) – Rich Lichon

ESR – Master

1st – 281.06 (93) – Gary Cuttitta

SSR – Sharpshooter

5th – 406.63 (148) – Mike Lakies

What a showing from Michigan!!!!!

[Ted Murphy]

Hello,

Thank you all for your comments.

I would like to point out one thing though. While we did have serious trouble with the chronograph, that was due to my misplaced faith in an individual who deomonstrated a less than reliable follow through vis a vis constructing the box for the chronograph. Coupled with a last minute range requirement that prohibited shooting (due to a NRA report on range safety) where the chrono was planned to be located, it became not only an intense bottleneck but a major annoyance without the coffin- and was discarded as a means to make the standards flow better.

The chrono did in fact work as advertised after it was configured per the manufacturer's directions but at that time too much water had passed under the bridge

This will of course not happen next year (assuming we hold the nationals again) but I did feel that it should be pointed out that this was a software (human) and not hardware (chrono) error.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled match discussion.

Ted

Edited October 3, 2007 by Ted Murphy

[freeidaho]

The legs were scored targets. You had to knock them down in order to see the paper targets, since you were shooting under a car. And they were pretty close, something like 8 yards, but I didn't measure it. The stage was 10 rounds minimum. Only two people out of 344 didn't get the legs to fall. It was my observation that they did not have their sights aligned to the point of impact, since they were making small groups in the berm, just not aligned with the leg. Most people finished the stage in 11 rounds or ten rounds.

This stage was a real life encounter that Walt Rausch survived. Not IDPA indeed.

kr

edited to tone down the animosity toward this thread....

Edited October 3, 2007 by freeidaho

[ima45dv8]

FWIW, it looks like as many or more people have posted that they enjoyed that stage. Take a deep breath and enjoy the positive comments you guys have received. You earned it!

[kdmoore]

I understand the idea, but why not use a common plate that you also score to activate the targets. do we now need to start practicing shooting the 2inch side of 2X4's at ten yards as a practice drill? I believe the rule book says not to use the everybody had to do it reason to justify something.

Here's the exact quote:

"Anyone using the line “it is the same for

everyone” to justify a tactically unsound stage should not be

allowed to run or design any stages of fire in IDPA. Mistakes will

be made in IDPA, but allowing poor course designs to flourish will

lead to the demise of IDPA quicker than any other factor."

What was "tactically unsound" about this stage, seems like a pretty cool idea to me. Certainly doesn't smack of poor course design.

As for practicing, I'd always consider accuracy to be important. It's not even hard to imagine hard cover on all of a target except a narrow strip, very tight rescue shots, etc.

Wouldn't a common plate at that distance be too easy?

I for one applaud a national match that pushes shooters. Given the difficulty of those shots one had to decide between the safe, slower route vs the faster disaster prone route. Put an 8"plate in there and it's a no brainer.

Kudo's for this design.

As for scoring the legs, they kind of were built into the scoring.

Edited to add the following was addressed while I was typing:

Anyways, did anyone fail to hit them? If not then the scores would all remain unchanged. If some missed them altogether, then their score would only get worse (you'd add a miss and maybe a FTN on the leg targets.)

Anyways, I can't imagine a match being more vetted out than this one, seems more likely that the unofficial ok that these idea's are Kosher.

Edited October 3, 2007 by kdmoore

[nwb01]

Thanks Shooterready !!!

It was really nice to see all of our local shooters there. We are very fortunate to have such a strong IDPA following in Michigan. I don't imagine there are too many areas were you can shoot EVERY weekend if you choose too.

I had a great time at my first Nationals, I didn't shoot as well as I could have, but still made it home with some hardware. Those darn standards really hurt me. You can never afford to drop 50 points on one stage !!! The stages were great and the staff was wonderful. Watching all the top shooters was truely a sight to see.

Congrats to Bob V. on his first SSP National Championship YOU DESERVE IT !!!!!!!!!! :cheers:

until next year,

Nick