Camouflage Clothing

[Jasonub]

ill back you up anytime for doing the right thing.

[CSEMARTIN]

No rulebook is going to come between me and protecting the health and welfare of others.

That's pretty much how I feel about things. Thanks Jasonub and everyone else here for making some sense. I do appreciate it.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but I do find it interesting that when I yelled stop at the match when I saw a competitor down range, nobody got upset. When I yelled finger and muzzle at a competitor that was acting dangerously the whole day, I was met with hostile aggression. I am horrified to learn that there are people out there that thought what I did was wrong. Anyway, I refuse to classify levels of danger. Either somebody is doing something dangerous or they aren't. "Go tell the MD" about it doesn't really fly. An accident can happen too quickly.

[Kingman]

I honestly don't care what the rule book says in any sport. I have two categories of issues:

1) Life and limb in immediate jeopardy

2) Everything else

Expect me to say something about #1 if I don't think it's being dealt with appropriately or at all. No rulebook is going to come between me and protecting the health and welfare of others.

I agree with this.

One way to handle the trigger is instead of yelling at some point when you see the issue saying something to an RO or MD, maybe even to the competitor yourself as sort of a nice reminder.

[bierman]

I was always taught (and teach) that on the range, safety is EVERYBODY'S responsibility, not just that of an assigned one or two. We all need to do everything we can to ensure that ours is a safe sport.

[Mooney]

When I have the timer, I am the last person off the stage. I won't even go near the line until I am 200% sure that I was the last one off the range.

I was nearly the recipient of 12 gauge slugs (along with another great fellow and stagehand) at a three-gun. RO too busy shooting the bull to realize there were two of us finishing pasting the targets. Luckily I realized it was too quiet, as we popped out to make sure we were still clear at "Are you ready". Shooter was LE and grounded his muzzle about as quickly as we ran for the other side of the stage.... damn lucky, and

I always make sure I am last back to the line.....

[38supPat]

Always err on the side of safety. I have seen a few incidents that could have been worse, but could also have been prevented if someone had spoke up. I'd rather give a reshoot than call an ambulance.

[Jaxshooter]

Another thing to consider when in the gallery and you yell at a shooter they have a tendancy to turn and look where the noise is coming from. In some siuations this can make matters even worse. The safety of everyone is first without question. But I have seen a couple of shooters who were startled by someone behind them yelling that they turned to face them with gun in hand.

[PaulW]

+100000 what Pat said. We all are R/O's to some degree. To error is human, but lets not be stupid. Saftey is FIRST and foremost PERIOD.

[EZ Bagger]

because it can be rather arbitrary as to whether someone's finger appears to be in the trigger guard or not - that's why we don't DQ for that, either. If the gun goes bang when its not supposed to, then we know the finger was in the trigger guard.

You may not be making the call, but if not, you're not following the current rules. I fully understand that this is one area that can be real tough, but an outright statement that waiting for the round to exit the barrel and all of the dangers associated with that is setting yourself up for a whole bunch of liability.

[Nik Habicht]

because it can be rather arbitrary as to whether someone's finger appears to be in the trigger guard or not - that's why we don't DQ for that, either. If the gun goes bang when its not supposed to, then we know the finger was in the trigger guard.

You may not be making the call, but if not, you're not following the current rules. I fully understand that this is one area that can be real tough, but an outright statement that waiting for the round to exit the barrel and all of the dangers associated with that is setting yourself up for a whole bunch of liability.

And what dangers are those exactly --- assuming that the muzzle is pointed at a berm within the confines of the 180? I have dq'd shooters for having their finger in the trigger guard during a reload, but I didn't think they had their finger in the guard --- I knew it.

R.O.s used to get ticked at shooters who took a loaded sight picture --- which isn't any more dangerous than what would occur about a second after the beep.....

[EZ Bagger]

because it can be rather arbitrary as to whether someone's finger appears to be in the trigger guard or not - that's why we don't DQ for that, either. If the gun goes bang when its not supposed to, then we know the finger was in the trigger guard.

You may not be making the call, but if not, you're not following the current rules. I fully understand that this is one area that can be real tough, but an outright statement that waiting for the round to exit the barrel and all of the dangers associated with that is setting yourself up for a whole bunch of liability.

And what dangers are those exactly --- assuming that the muzzle is pointed at a berm within the confines of the 180? I have dq'd shooters for having their finger in the trigger guard during a reload, but I didn't think they had their finger in the guard --- I knew it.

R.O.s used to get ticked at shooters who took a loaded sight picture --- which isn't any more dangerous than what would occur about a second after the beep.....

You're assuming liability for not making a call that is a DQ infraction in the rule book and making that statement in a public forum (whether the gun is pointed at the berm or not). I agree that there is an issue here as to where the line is and at what point the call should be made. What I disagree with is the flat out statement that you're going to wait for a bang to make the call that a finger is in the trigger guard.

[Nik Habicht]

because it can be rather arbitrary as to whether someone's finger appears to be in the trigger guard or not - that's why we don't DQ for that, either. If the gun goes bang when its not supposed to, then we know the finger was in the trigger guard.

You may not be making the call, but if not, you're not following the current rules. I fully understand that this is one area that can be real tough, but an outright statement that waiting for the round to exit the barrel and all of the dangers associated with that is setting yourself up for a whole bunch of liability.

And what dangers are those exactly --- assuming that the muzzle is pointed at a berm within the confines of the 180? I have dq'd shooters for having their finger in the trigger guard during a reload, but I didn't think they had their finger in the guard --- I knew it.

R.O.s used to get ticked at shooters who took a loaded sight picture --- which isn't any more dangerous than what would occur about a second after the beep.....

You're assuming liability for not making a call that is a DQ infraction in the rule book and making that statement in a public forum (whether the gun is pointed at the berm or not). I agree that there is an issue here as to where the line is and at what point the call should be made. What I disagree with is the flat out statement that you're going to wait for a bang to make the call that a finger is in the trigger guard.

I didn't make that statement --- and I don't think, after reading Dave's post, that he meant to imply just that either. Having a finger in the trigger guard is only prohibited in certain instances, and can be incredibly tough to "for certain" call while a shooter is moving. It can be an easier call during reloads, or malfunction clearances, providing the RO can set up correctly --- and I've DQ'd shooters for that in the past. That said --- I've also seen lots of things that I perceived as potential safety violations from my angle in the peanut gallery, that the R.O. saw as being nowhere close to a safety violation. Perception and angles can be tricky things --- that's why we rely on R.O.s who are either on top of the shooter, or watching the same safety angle all day long, in the case of a second or third RO who gets positioned at a certain spot for every shooter.....

I've been a stage designer and a match director for a while now --- I'm pretty sure my name would go on a lawsuit. Do you really think I'd be arguing for anything but a strenuous effort at enforcing our safety rules? I won't --- but that responsibility rests primarily with the range officials, not the spectators.

[EZ Bagger]

... responsibility rests primarily with the range officials, not the spectators.

Agreed.

[MichiganShootist]

For my 2 cents worth I would like to add this "thought" to the thread.

I believe that many (not all) but far too many ROs, CROs, Range Masters, and Match Directors... need to loose a lot of the "chip on the shoulder attitude".

Certainly they often have a lot of experience.. and are very wise...but especially when issues of safety are at stake many should keep their ears open and their mouths shut. In my years of competitive shooting I have brought a number of issues regarding shooter safety to the attention of people in these positions and have been ignored because of their egos.

Hell I was running a hot range in the military before lots of these "experts" were born.... and I still believe what I learned 40 years ago. If anyone on the range sees a safety problem... it is their duty.. I repeat DUTY to call a cease fire.

Why should the practical shooting sports have any other mind set????????????? After all... It is a game.

Edited September 17, 2007 by MichiganShootist

[Jim Norman]

Michigan,

I agree with you. With the following caveat. the spectator calling STOP had damed well better be sure. I would reserve this to a range failure call such as props down, walls falling, persons coming over the berm or somehow left behind on the range. A 180 break called from the back of the range when a shooter is 75 feet downrange would be very hard to truly access, UNLESS you are seeing rifling in the barrel.

So, where do I stand? You see a person on the berm, on the range call STOP, LOUDLY

You see a tree falling onto the range, Call STOP

You see the walls falling down, call STOP

You see a foot fault. SHUT UP, not your job, not safety releated

You think you see a sweeping, UNLESS you are so positioned so that you are that close and at that angle (and I fail to be able to see how you could or should be unless you are one of the ROs) SHUT UP.

The angle that the shooter is viewed at as seen from the sidelines is genearlly such in your sport that you cannot assume that the angle that the shooter and RO are actually at are the same. I have seen really good runs ruined by over zealous calls of Muzzle. The rule is 180, not 170. Yes you can warn a shooter. Ahould you and if so, when should you? That I think depends uponthe shooter in question. A new shooter might get a warning from me at say 170-175, while a very experianced shooter will not get a warning, At all. He is at the 180, that is OK, he id over, then he is done. He may be very well aware of exactly where he is and my "Warning" could actually push him over, or simply break his concentration and ruin an otherwise great run.

Then again, I could be completey wrong.

Jim

[G-ManBart]

I honestly don't care what the rule book says in any sport. I have two categories of issues:

1) Life and limb in immediate jeopardy

2) Everything else

Expect me to say something about #1 if I don't think it's being dealt with appropriately or at all. No rulebook is going to come between me and protecting the health and welfare of others.

+1

[Gary Johnson]

... Did I break the rules for speaking up, or should I have just sat there quietly and let the SO start the shooter and hope that guy down range didn't get his ass shot?

No one is going to give you grief for preventing a major safety issue. Thanks and handshakes are the common response.

I got confronted at an IDPA major match for yelling finger and muzzle at a dangerous competitor, and I got reprimanded by an SO at another USPSA major match. I believe I was told that I was "coaching" the competitor.

I wouldn't call it coaching but I would ask you not to do it. Warnings should only be used by instructors and coaches.

If you see a safety violation, yell stop, or bring it to the attention of range staff. If a shooter is having trouble, take him aside and pass along a little advice. Your words will have a much greater effect and you won't incur the ire of your squad mates.

[Nemo]

John, to answer your question, I do believe the SO is ultimately responsible. But certainly the shooter shares in the blame.

I'm not sure or clear on this... The RO is responsible for the safety at the range but ULTIMATELY the finger that presses the trigger that causes that negligent discharge is the shooter's. We are all responsible for range safety, more so YOU/ME when getting ready or during the shoot.

The SO didn't have the shooter load and make ready because the match I shot at runs a hot range. Nearly everyone was loaded before they got to the line.

To drift the thread a bit more...

I believe hot ranges have no place in a competition environment. Too many loaded guns to be badly handled, fall out of holsters while setting stages, in the hands of people that I don't know what's in their heads...

In a stage with a starting position of gun on table, the RO calls the LAMR (actually only "make ready" since everybody is already loaded), there's that shooter downrange that no one notices still pasting or setting targets. The shooter is the poor guy that's so freakin' nervous because is his first match and he never carries his gun around loaded. He removes his gun from the holster to set in on the table... So many things can go wrong at that time. At least with a LAMR with an unloaded gun there are maybe 5 extra seconds for people to notice the guy downrange.

Anyway Doc, when you go to this match always watch your six.

[SMLGLOCK23C]

I agree

[Aglifter]

I don't think anyone would fault someone for yelling "stop" due to a prop failure (which often an RO might not be able to see), or for people being downrange* -- but "finger" and "muzzle" would seem difficult, IMO, to judge from a spectator's position, and inappropriate.

*The gentleman running the timer was messing w. it once, when I was the last one left taping targets -- that "beep" was possibly the loudest sound I've ever heard.

[CSEMARTIN]

I don't think anyone would fault someone for yelling "stop" due to a prop failure (which often an RO might not be able to see), or for people being downrange

The Match Director was very thankful I yelled "stop".

I believe yelling "stop" for a prop failure is inappropriate coming from a spectator so I respectfully disagree with you.

[Sarge]

I don't think anyone would fault someone for yelling "stop" due to a prop failure (which often an RO might not be able to see), or for people being downrange* -- but "finger" and "muzzle" would seem difficult, IMO, to judge from a spectator's position, and inappropriate.

*The gentleman running the timer was messing w. it once, when I was the last one left taping targets -- that "beep" was possibly the loudest sound I've ever heard.

I know of a jack ass who likes to yell standby then hit the beeper when he thinks tapers are too slow. Had it happen to me once. I go out of my way to not be near him anymore at a match.

[joecichlid]

If I am the one down range and the RO gives the LAMR and you are the one yelling STOP! trust me buddy, I am buying you a beer an that RO better do the same for saving both our necks.

Joe W.

[NoSteel]

I have to wonder why the sport doesn't mandate that the ro or score keeper

stay downrange u til the range is clear. If you have nobody at the start to call

make ready, then there is little chance of being in the position to have to hollar

out to begin with.

[Sarge]

I have to wonder why the sport doesn't mandate that the ro or score keeper

stay downrange u til the range is clear. If you have nobody at the start to call

make ready, then there is little chance of being in the position to have to hollar

out to begin with.

I am a new RO so I guess I have picked up good habits early because I always make it a point to be the last guy downrange. I also was taught to always try to keep a head count but that is less effective when shooters like to wander off now and then.