Camouflage Clothing

[CSEMARTIN]

I've noticed that camouflage clothing and outdoor pistol matches don't mix.

The scenario went like this:

Competitor seated at a table, gun hot and holstered.......

SO: "Shooter Ready?"

Me(sitting in the peanut gallery): "STOP!!!!!!!!!"

SO and everyone on my squad looking at me with puzzled faces...

Me: "There is a shooter down range pasting targets"

So here is the question. Did I break the rules for speaking up, or should I have just sat there quietly and let the SO start the shooter and hope that guy down range didn't get his ass shot?

I got confronted at an IDPA major match for yelling finger and muzzle at a dangerous competitor, and I got reprimanded by an SO at another USPSA major match. I believe I was told that I was "coaching" the competitor.

What is going on these days?

[Jaxshooter]

I think you were right in the instance with a shooter down range before the start. In the second case I think you were wrong to say anything. That is the responsibility of the SO not a fellow competitor. While they viewed it as coaching, I would look at it as distraction to the shooter and if he paused or other wise broke stride I would discuss the situation with the MD and try to get the shooter a reshoot.

[mscott]

Good catch. It is bad enough that the shooter loaded his gun with others downrange, but then was about to start shooting. It sounds real bad, but I think people get into too big of a hurry to move things along. I wouldn't blame the clothing for the problem. I was told to load and make ready last weekend, but my response was "Let those guys get the targets pasted first" as there were 2 shooters downrange. Everyone on the squad needs to look out for this sort of thing.

[CSEMARTIN]

I think you were wrong

I agree that it is the responsibility of the SO to make safety calls. But what if the SO isn't doing their job? Since when does worrying about distracting a shooter take priority over a safety issue?

[CSEMARTIN]

Everyone on the squad needs to look out for this sort of thing.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm guilty of loading up after being given the command (without verifying to myself that the range is clear). I learned a valuable lesson from all of this. The first rule of gun safety is- the gun is always loaded. Well, I think we need to add another safety rule- The range isn't clear.

[mscott]

I think you were wrong

I agree that it is the responsibility of the SO to make safety calls. But what if the SO isn't doing their job? Since when does worrying about distracting a shooter take priority over a safety issue?

Let the RO/SO make the calls that could maybe be an issue. People down range is one thing, but fingers near or in trigger guards should not be called from the crowd. Maybe the match director should know if there is something not being done properly.

[yoshidaex]

CSEMARTIN,

In the caes of a shooter still downrange taping, I'll back you up 110%. I think its better to get reprimanded for making a call the SO should have made than dealing with a lawsuit because the SO wasn't paying attention. A lawsuit would have shut that range down and make everyone unhappy. Good on ya!!!

Edited September 8, 2007 by yoshidaex

[et45]

The SO is not doing his job if he loads someone up with people down range.After making the call on the last target he should remain down range and make sure it is clear when he comes back to the line.As for the finger that is the SO's job to call.Perhaps after the shooter finishes you could mention what you saw to the SO.

[CDRODA396]

I think you were absolutely right to point out the hazard...I know the guy down range had to have appreciated it!

Maybe we should amend the range commands from "Load and Make Ready" to "If the range is clear, Load and Make Ready" reminding the shooter and the RO the make a quick scan before they get ready to get busy.

[JThompson]

Scary stuff... you did right by yelling stop. We always use a very loud, "Range going hot!!" before LAMR and on one occasion got a "Wait!"

Bottom line for me is do what you have to to keep people safe.

[waxman]

What if you see the shooter breaking the 180? I saw this a few weeks ago, with a new 12 year old shooter. I actually seen the muzzle pointed back at me.

[John Kane]

That's one of the scariest stories I've heard and agree, it's hard to blame that on the clothing. I think you absolutely did the right thing.

Not trying to steal your thread but I had a few questions. Happy to make this a different thread if that is the proper protocol.

Was the SO/RO at fault here? Sounds like it to me. Had someone LAMR w/ someone down range.

If so, are there ramifications for that infraction? Shouldn't the RO have been DQ'd?

Seems like you helped avoid what could have been a real tragedy for all shooting sports.

[Kingman]

That's one of the scariest stories I've heard and agree, it's hard to blame that on the clothing. I think you absolutely did the right thing.

Not trying to steal your thread but I had a few questions. Happy to make this a different thread if that is the proper protocol.

Was the SO/RO at fault here? Sounds like it to me. Had someone LAMR w/ someone down range.

If so, are there ramifications for that infraction? Shouldn't the RO have been DQ'd?

Seems like you helped avoid what could have been a real tragedy for all shooting sports.

Interesting. I know that USPSA now has a way of disciplining RO's.

[CSEMARTIN]

"If the range is clear, Load and Make Ready"

I like that.

John, to answer your question, I do believe the SO is ultimately responsible. But certainly the shooter shares in the blame. The SO didn't have the shooter load and make ready because the match I shot at runs a hot range. Nearly everyone was loaded before they got to the line. I'm not trying to pick on any person or club, that's why I am not going to tell where this happened. I think this could happen anywhere. All it takes is a few seconds of inattention. I do believe the SO was fairly new, at least that was my impression.

I have been thinking about the yelling finger and muzzle stuff from the crowd. I am starting to see everyone's point on this. It is the SO's job to watch for that stuff. The only piece of information I left out was that it was happening all day long before I got so fed up and said something. I should have mentioned it to the match director earlier.

On a side note, I think there needs to be less of a gray area. Why do we need all of these commands? Either the shooter is doing something dangerous, or they are not. Perhaps the only command necessary after the shooter is started and before they finish is STOP.

[mscott]

How does the "hot range" work out? Does everyone arrive and load up in a designated area? Unload at the end of the match? When do you top off your gun between stages? Doesn't sound like a good idea.

[Kingman]

what about dropped guns. insta DQ instead of RO picking it up and handing it to you.

[1911user]

How does the "hot range" work out? Does everyone arrive and load up in a designated area? Unload at the end of the match? When do you top off your gun between stages? Doesn't sound like a good idea.

I shot an IDPA match several years ago that was ran as a hot range. You load upon arrival (if not already loaded and carrying, most were) and the pistol stays holstered unless shooting a stage. The pistol was topped off before reholstering at the end of each stage. It's not a big deal so long as people don't act stupid. It also placed an emphasis on using a good carry holster. I suspect (don't know for sure) that a dropped pistol would have been an instant DQ.

[John Kane]

Good point and I agree the shooter should share blame. As a shooter, I usually take for granted that the range is clear and am focused on getting ready for the stage. Good lesson not to.

[CSEMARTIN]

How does the "hot range" work out?

I got to the match a little late so I'm not sure how things went down. Since my routine is to stay cold, that's what I did. The MD gave us the option of unloading and showing clear or topping off at the end of the stage. No one was allowed to leave the range without permission. Once you go hot, you stay put with your squad. I've been to a couple of matches that run a hot range. It's very efficient. I have mixed feelings on it though. I've seen quite a few AD's in the past few years- one was in the safe area. Another time, a friend of mine and I were showing each other our guns in the safe area when another competitor walked up, racked his slide and out popped a loaded round from his chamber. How does this happen? Last year at a major IDPA match, the MD did a safety inspection at registration. He found two guns that were loaded. I've seen inexperienced shooters just reach down and unholster their guns in a crowd of people for no apparent reason. I've seen competitors put all of their gear, including ammo, in the safe area with people all around and nobody says anything. One of the many good things I can say about Carmoney is that he came up to me at Summer Blast '06 and said, "hey, why is your hammer cocked?" I had been in the safe area doing some dryfire before the match started and just holstered my pistol without dropping the hammer. I have a bad habit of doing that. Some guys would get bent out of shape over that. I appreciate it. It's comforting to know others are watching what is going on.

All in all, I personally think running a hot range is a bad idea. I've always wondered why it is in the IDPA rulebook that you can't run a hot range at a sanctioned match, but there is no rule about running a hot range any other time. I just don't get it.

[Hank Ellis]

I think you were absolutely right to point out the hazard...I know the guy down range had to have appreciated it!

Maybe we should amend the range commands from "Load and Make Ready" to "If the range is clear, Load and Make Ready" reminding the shooter and the RO the make a quick scan before they get ready to get busy.

I've been caught downrange resetting a stage when the "Line is Hot!" command was given. Twice.

Being this unlucky I check to make sure the range really is clear before I LAMR. Barricades are notorious for hiding a shooter who's crouched down trying to reset a finicky swinger or turner. Sure it slows the match a bit but safety is priority one. You want to slow a match down. Go fill out the paperwork if someone gets hurt.

Besides the suggestion for the amended range command, try the buddy system. Don't be downrange alone. One shooter missiing from the squad may not get noticed but two missing may key the brain that someone may still be downrange.

Of course stopping the RO was the right thing to do. Another way to look at is that if you didn't stop the RO and someone got hurt, you may be criminally liable. Any lawyer would take that and run with it. "You knew someone was downrange and you knew that firearms were soon to be discharged in his direction and you did nothing about it?" Guilty.

[CSEMARTIN]

if you didn't stop the RO and someone got hurt, you may be criminally liable.

Yeah, but the rulebook says that it is the SO's responsibility to make safety calls. What if I distracted the shooter? Besides, how would a lawyer find out what I didn't say I saw. If that dude got shot, I'm not going to stand up and yell, "I knew that was going to happen!!!!"

Seriously though, I can't imagine anyone in their right mind sitting by and watching a stage get run with another competitor down range. I was only being sarcastic earlier. I think the rulebooks are a little ridiculous. Putting the sole responsibility on one SO and scorekeeper, when there is a squad full of people watching, is retarded. That's all I was getting at.

[uscbigdawg]

CSE

As someone who's RO'ed Nationals, Area and countless regional & sectional matches, I'll say you did nothing wrong in both instances. If a RO (we don't have SO's in USPSA) has a problem with someone attempting to be safe then they don't need to be a RO any longer. That's EVERYONE's call.

Finger on the trigger during the reload or the transition and calling it out to a competitor by the book may be coaching but I won't ding you or the competitor for it since it's a safety issue and that's my (position of the RO) only real reason for being out there to begin with is to keep the competitor safe from himself and from harming others.

That said, no range of mine or match where I'm MD will EVER have camo clothing of any kind (Realtree) or otherwise worn on it since I don't like it and while it's not explicity banned in the rules, it's always a MD's call.

Rich

[XRe]

Actually, the official stance on yelling things like "Finger!" and "Muzzle!", at this point, for US NROI, is that you don't (at least, by Mr. McMeanus' posts on this forum). There is no warning - the competitor either breaks the 180 or they don't. For a long time, in the US, we've not called "Finger!", because it can be rather arbitrary as to whether someone's finger appears to be in the trigger guard or not - that's why we don't DQ for that, either. If the gun goes bang when its not supposed to, then we know the finger was in the trigger guard.

If you see a shooter downrange when the RO is preparing the give the shooter the LAMR command, do everything within your power to make sure that doesn't happen. That is absolutely, 100% proper - if an RO ever yells at you for that, they need to be beaten. Severely. The RO should be checking his stage and ensuring that everyone is off of it before he loads up the next shooter. Mistakes happen - luckily very rarely - but it should be recognized that the mistake is the RO's...

At big matches, the ROs should have the wherewithal to spot things like 180 infractions. Sometimes in local matches, we only have one person (the RO with the timer) formally paying attention to the shooter, and things get missed because the RO can't see the gun at the time. In local matches, it is probably OK to call the DQ. At a big USPSA match, you've just opened the door for an arbitration (that the shooter will win and get a reshoot) - the RO didn't spot the infraction, and theoretically (if they're doing their job) they're in a better position to see it than you are.

If you see an RO missing obvious calls, have a polite chat with them about it. If its a big match, you could mention it to the RM, in lieu of or in addition to speaking (politely) with the RO.

I don't know what is considered appropriate at an IDPA match.

Hey, Rich....

... it's always a MD's call.

I hope you're only referring to the allowance of camouflage clothing

[uscbigdawg]

Dave - Absolutely.

Rich

[EricW]

I honestly don't care what the rule book says in any sport. I have two categories of issues:

1) Life and limb in immediate jeopardy

2) Everything else

Expect me to say something about #1 if I don't think it's being dealt with appropriately or at all. No rulebook is going to come between me and protecting the health and welfare of others.