Classification not Always Indicitive of Skill Level

[Steve Moneypenny]

Here's another interesting scenario for you. If you can only sandbag once or win one big major why did i win first master last year at area 5, area 6 and area 7? but not get moved up in class?????

so where should i be.. no i can't win a match overall. thanks to ben, bob, dave and ad a few other very good GM's but barring just a bad day or being sick as heck, I can win master class at about any match ( summer blast case in point) Area 8 i had a had cold and shot horribly. lack of concentraion ability kills shooting.

I think that people aren't so much hammering on C and D class shooters as much as they are those who should be A or M and hanging out to collect rewards.

[Perry F.]

Your issues with whats going on in IPSC, is not why I posted, I am concerned that you think our lower Classes, don't warrant any recognition.

Ahhhh.. This may be the problem.

Perry you should re-read my earlier posts. I stated that I do indeed feel that classes should be recognized with trophy awards. I just don't feel that money or prizes should be distributed based on class.

We had some miscommunication.

We agree on the first part. Is money gvien out to classes at Area 5, if so how much?

Perry

[Jake Di Vita]

My personal feeling is it is too easy to be a GM now. In all honesty, I probably should not be one. Granted, there are times when I have a moment of clarity and can win a stage or two at the Nationals, but by and large in terms of consistency and overall match performance, I'm not good enough....yet.

[Ben Stoeger]

Your issues with whats going on in IPSC, is not why I posted, I am concerned that you think our lower Classes, don't warrant any recognition.

Ahhhh.. This may be the problem.

Perry you should re-read my earlier posts. I stated that I do indeed feel that classes should be recognized with trophy awards. I just don't feel that money or prizes should be distributed based on class.

We had some miscommunication.

We agree on the first part. Is money gvien out to classes at Area 5, if so how much?

Perry

Ronnie has the formula.. It is based on total number of entrants in the division. I think based on the numbers we have now, the production division winner will take home about 400 bucks. First M will get a couple hundredish, and so forth, right on down to High D.

[Coach]

Classification is a lot like being seeded in a tennis tournament or wrestling tournament in my mind. The better competitors will be seeded high but that does not mean they will win the overall championship.

Being a GM is one thing and being a national champion is another. There are several big name GM's that are great shooters that may never win a national or world title. But they are GM's.

Why does everyone get upset about sandbagging? Does it really matter?

Why is it that some think it is better to move up in class despite having never won their class before moving up. I don't care too much about class, but I want to be competitive in what ever class I am in. I don't want to be a B class shooter and place below half of C class at the major match. Moving up prematurely will make than more likely to happen.

I have always been better at shooting the overall match than I have been at shooting the classifier. I have been doing better at the classifiers lately, but the guy who shoots the overall match better is not necessarily represented by his classification.

The current system is not perfect but it works ok.

[Flyin40]

If you beat 3 GMs, but Max Michel pummels you by 25%, are you still a GM?

Great question. There are alot of Masters out there the people call Sandbaggers. All I do is check the performance at larger matches against the top GM's. It is almost always the the case that the top M's finish between 85% and 94% of the top Gm's. They finish with a Master Class percentage so to me these guys are not sandbaggers. Many will disagree with this because these Masters can win 4 or 5 sectionals yr or place high at the Area matches. I look at percentages and not the place they finished at. Until I can start finishing in the 95% plus at major matches of the top Gm's I would be nothing more than a Paper Gm in my opinion but thats just my thinking. If that would be beyond my ablility then I would be just fine being an M for the rest of my shooting days.

To answer Jake's question, in my opinion, No though technically you are. I finished with an 85% of Chris Tilley this yr and it was the first time I really felt like I earned my Master class Title even though I was the bottom of a M class percentage.

[Coach]

Here's another interesting scenario for you. If you can only sandbag once or win one big major why did i win first master last year at area 5, area 6 and area 7? but not get moved up in class?????

I think moving up to GM is an exception to winning the Area matches policy.

[Perry F.]

Your issues with whats going on in IPSC, is not why I posted, I am concerned that you think our lower Classes, don't warrant any recognition.

Ahhhh.. This may be the problem.

Perry you should re-read my earlier posts. I stated that I do indeed feel that classes should be recognized with trophy awards. I just don't feel that money or prizes should be distributed based on class.

We had some miscommunication.

We agree on the first part. Is money gvien out to classes at Area 5, if so how much?

Perry

Ronnie has the formula.. It is based on total number of entrants in the division. I think based on the numbers we have now, the production division winner will take home about 400 bucks. First M will get a couple hundredish, and so forth, right on down to High D.

This is only my second season of USPSA, I am not sure, if I can comment on the money prizes but I'll try.

Aren't the matches made up of mostly B,C,D shooters? Should they not get a piece of the pie? they also have to pay expenses.

[Ben Stoeger]

Your issues with whats going on in IPSC, is not why I posted, I am concerned that you think our lower Classes, don't warrant any recognition.

Ahhhh.. This may be the problem.

Perry you should re-read my earlier posts. I stated that I do indeed feel that classes should be recognized with trophy awards. I just don't feel that money or prizes should be distributed based on class.

We had some miscommunication.

We agree on the first part. Is money gvien out to classes at Area 5, if so how much?

Perry

Ronnie has the formula.. It is based on total number of entrants in the division. I think based on the numbers we have now, the production division winner will take home about 400 bucks. First M will get a couple hundredish, and so forth, right on down to High D.

This is only my second season of USPSA, I am not sure, if I can comment on the money prizes but I'll try.

Aren't the matches made up of mostly B,C,D shooters? Should they not get a piece of the pie? they also have to pay expenses.

I agree with DPs position on the other thread:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...st&p=591759

I guess the problem is I don't like the idea of "distributing" winnings. I think winnings should be won. OR.. we can just give stuff away randomly, thats fine as well. Unfortunatly, we can't really delve any further into this topic. This thread is on the verge of getting closed already.

Later,

Ben

[shred]

I beat 12 GM's at the Open Nationals (more than 40% of them). Am I a GM now?

I also finished with a middle A-class percentage compared to Max (while still beating all the A's). Am I an A now?

[driver8M3]

the only solution is to have a multi-level ranking system:

for example, shred will be a M/GM/A...

M based on classifiers

GM b/c he beat a bunch of GMs in a match

A b/c that's the percentage he shot at a big match.

...that should clear everything up...and the good news is, he's now eligible for cash & prizes in 3 classes!!!

[JThompson]

I beat 12 GM's at the Open Nationals (more than 40% of them). Am I a GM now?

I also finished with a middle A-class percentage compared to Max (while still beating all the A's). Am I an A now?

Damn straight you are... You beat 12 GM in a real test of what we do! That's not some BS you can practice over & over until you can shoot it in with your eyes closed. IMHO the shit is broke... There's no way an M should be able to beat 10+ GMs unless there is a HUGE flaw!

[JThompson]

the only solution is to have a multi-level ranking system:

for example, shred will be a M/GM/A...

M based on classifiers

GM b/c he beat a bunch of GMs in a match

A b/c that's the percentage he shot at a big match.

...that should clear everything up...and the good news is, he's now eligible for cash & prizes in 3 classes!!!

Thank you for free thinking. Something, and I might not have the answer, needs to be changed. Do I really care?? Well, no more than this thread, but when I see something that, I think, is broke I will not go with the heard.

Edited August 10, 2007 by JThompson

[GentlemanJim]

I am only a B shooter..and when I was a C shooter I beat some GMs....we dont always shoot up to the best of our abilities.

We all have those moments where we just kick butt big time...or crash and burn.

The system isnt perfect...and some people manipulate it for thier gain by sandbagging...others practice classifiers so much they become paper masters.

Its what we have at the moment...we can just make the best of it until it changes.

It seems quite hard to accurately measure our performance..and I am not sure any system would be free of flaws.

jim

[JThompson]

I am only a B shooter..and when I was a C shooter I beat some GMs....we dont always shoot up to the best of our abilities.

We all have those moments where we just kick butt big time...or crash and burn.

The system isnt perfect...and some people manipulate it for thier gain by sandbagging...others practice classifiers so much they become paper masters.

Its what we have at the moment...we can just make the best of it until it changes.

It seems quite hard to accurately measure our performance..and I am not sure any system would be free of flaws.

jim

I agree Jim.... What we are doing here is what is done to precipitate change. We talk about it, give our thoughts and hope someone who can change it is listening. All we can do is suggest that there might be a better option, even if we don't know what that may be. To accept without thought.... Baaaaaaaah I will never be ewe.

Edited August 10, 2007 by JThompson

[Flexmoney]

Match Directors...at each match individually...decide how to distribute awards and prizes. The only real exception to this is Level III matches, which can also award USPSA President's Medals.

[hopalong]

I can't shoot a Master percentage at a Major match in Limited, Yet I have this funny card that says I am one.

I have won several Area matches and many Sectionals with my revolver, yet this funny card says I am an A (so does my percentages vs. Jerry)

In no way do I think I am a Master at any of the guns I use, Getting close with a couple though but many think I should be a GM with the Revo and a M with the autoloaders, but when the numbers come in from the majors I shoot against the real GMs in the respective divisions the card and the numbers are pretty much correct except for the limited classification (I have only shot 80% at 1 major with some of the Big Dawg GMs there).

Sandbaggers and Grandbaggers come and go, we know who they are and they do too. If they can sleep at night more power to them. It is their own character they are degrading.

Hopalong

[JThompson]

I can't shoot a Master percentage at a Major match in Limited, Yet I have this funny card that says I am one.

I have won several Area matches and many Sectionals with my revolver, yet this funny card says I am an A (so does my percentages vs. Jerry)

In no way do I think I am a Master at any of the guns I use, Getting close with a couple though but many think I should be a GM with the Revo and a M with the autoloaders, but when the numbers come in from the majors I shoot against the real GMs in the respective divisions the card and the numbers are pretty much correct except for the limited classification (I have only shot 80% at 1 major with some of the Big Dawg GMs there).

Sandbaggers and Grandbaggers come and go, we know who they are and they do too. If they can sleep at night more power to them. It is their own character they are degrading.

Hopalong

Percentages against Jerry? He's about 20% OR MORE, above most in that class though Hop. If we looked at it like that we would have to demote 2/3 of the GMs to master as compared to Max, Robbie, Dave etc....

I'm done... at this point I think we have all had our say. If anyone has a few parting words.... otherwise, I think we can call this one done.

Edited August 10, 2007 by JThompson

[Flexmoney]

I'm done... at this point I think we have all had our say. If anyone has a few parting words.... otherwise, I think we can call this one done.

LOL...maybe this thread will hold us for 6 months. We seem to beat this horse at regular intervals.

[JThompson]

I'm done... at this point I think we have all had our say. If anyone has a few parting words.... otherwise, I think we can call this one done.

LOL...maybe this thread will hold us for 6 months. We seem to beat this horse at regular intervals.

I was wondering why that damn thing never blinked.

[tightloop]

I can't shoot a Master percentage at a Major match in Limited, Yet I have this funny card that says I am one.

I have won several Area matches and many Sectionals with my revolver, yet this funny card says I am an A (so does my percentages vs. Jerry)

In no way do I think I am a Master at any of the guns I use, Getting close with a couple though but many think I should be a GM with the Revo and a M with the autoloaders, but when the numbers come in from the majors I shoot against the real GMs in the respective divisions the card and the numbers are pretty much correct except for the limited classification (I have only shot 80% at 1 major with some of the Big Dawg GMs there).

Sandbaggers and Grandbaggers come and go, we know who they are and they do too. If they can sleep at night more power to them. It is their own character they are degrading.

Hopalong

Percentages against Jerry? He's about 20% OR MORE, above most in that class though Hop. If we looked at it like that we would have to demote 2/3 of the GMs to master as compared to Max, Robbie, Dave etc....

I'm done... at this point I think we have all had our say. If anyone has a few parting words.... otherwise, I think we can call this one done.

Now if there ever was a case for a Pro class shooter it is Jerry M...then probably TGO and some of the rest..

[Mick]

USPSA doesn't demote folks for good reason. On Saturday we had a relatively big match in Greenville where there were 2 GMs (one is 40ish the other 51) and no Ms and As. It was 100 degrees plus! By the time I got to the classifer (my last stage) I shot it like a little school girl (no offense girls). I didn't care at that point but I shot the field courses like I meant it and won the match. Some younger Bs were running hard and were running well out of B class. The heat about killed us older folks, the younger guys had a really good chance.

We earned our rankings and get to keep them even if age and the accompanying physical aspects slow

you down.

TGO will always be great but not the fastest.

Edited August 13, 2007 by Mick

[konkapot]

Ive had this type of discussion periodically over the years with my fellow "Paper GMs" and "Paper Ms." It's a sticky subject, probably with no perfect solution. Just a couple random thoughts bouncing around my little brain.

I've checked the rulebook. There is no class called "Paper GM." Or paper anything. My understanding is that your classification is based on the top six of your most recent eight classifiers. Period.

I hear frequently from other class shooters "Well, I shoot at a GM/M/A (whatever) level in field courses. I just can't shoot classifiers."

Well, if I had a million dollars I'd be a millionaire. If my semiauto pistol had a cylinder it would be a revolver. If my cat was a dog he'd be....well, a dog. If I could play golf like Tiger Woods I'd be Tiger Woods. If my time on that stage was 7 seconds faster, and I got all As, I'd have won the stage. And so on and so on.

A classifier requires you to, on d-e-m-a-n-d, demonstrate a proficient draw, target transition, reload(s) and accuracy. Without any need to be nimble on your feet, or be able to "read" a stage. That's it.

Perfect? Nope. Generally speaking, accurate? Close enough. I know the difference between me and Messrs Sevigny, Leatham, Bragg, Seeklander, et al.

I made "Paper GM" in about 32 months, if I recall. Over a 1000 rds a week, on my own time and dime. Took a class from Frank Garcia. On my own time and dime. Went to major matches for the express purpose of getting my butt kicked. Sat in a lot of airports after the match, trying to figure what I did wrong, and what I need to work on. Again...on my own time and dime.

There aren't many GMs (paper or the other type) who post here. Maybe they are in their garage, loading ammo for tomorrow's practice. Maybe they are at the range. Maybe they're working a second job to pay for the next major match.......or bullets....powder...primers.

Mr. DaVita has the cojones to express the opinon that prizes should be earned....and people jump on him? Ben Stoeger (who shoots like a rocket powered monkey blasting across the desert) gets the same treatment for expressing a similar opinion?

I am painfully aware that there is a difference between me and top 16 shooters. If there's a need (and it's been discussed here) we can create a "Super GM" class. Whatever....just do me a favor and don't diminish the hard work that Jake, Ben, I, Flex, Matt, and a bunch of Ms/GMs that I don't remember put into to get a GM card....whether it's "paper" or just simply earned...........by shooting over 95% with the top six of your 8 most recent classifiers.

Rant over. For now.

FY42385

[Mick]

You make some good points and I still think that when you earn something it's yours for however long you want it.

Y'all wait until these GMs get to their 50s, it just doesn't work the same anymore.

I pushed REAL HARD when I was 45 and got to 98% because I knew it wasn't going to "get better with age". I hate wearing glasses and the only thing I don't like about getting old (so far) is the loss of something like my eyesight of which I now realize was very good compared to most.

That'll make me a "has been" but I'd rather be a "has been" than a "never was"!!!

[dubletap]

If I want to move up the standings, why would I spend hours upon hours practicing draws and reloads?

Have yet to see a better overall system, so would be hesitant to recommend huge changes.

I don't agree with the the first part. Draws and reloads often times make a big difference in the timing of moving targets. Say you have a stage that has you start holding a shopping cart. It is much faster to pull the cart then draw and get a static target shot before say two movers. But if your draw is out of shape you have compromised the opportunity to take a static target before any moving targets and if one is a dissappearing target- you may miss the opportunity to shoot that as well! This is just one example- but one in which I see played out in many ways, many times. Same goes for the reload. Mess that up and it can cost you seconds. If the fresh mag falls behind a wall and is unretreivable- it could cost you the stage by not having enough rounds to finish the course. Again- I have seen it several times. Lets not forget about the speed shoot courses! So- yeah, I think the draws and reloads are very important skills to master!

I tend to agree with you on the system we have in place- as long as everyone "plays it straight" and utilizes some integrity as far as re-shoots and "tanking" classifiers are concerned. People "tank" classifiers- it sucks, but it seems to be the nature of the beast before a big match. I have seen a couple of "sandbaggers" get bumped up from Area match placement though- so that helps....

Draws and reloads and transition are much bigger than you might expect. I was recently practicing with TGO and Mike L on one of the Drill Master COF's and Rob was a good 4-5 secs faster than us every time. I asked him where the time was, how was he 4 secs faster? We broke down the times and it was in the draw and his transition to a new position every time. Splits on a target were the same or a 10th faster at most. His reloads are lightning quick and it gets him shooting sooner. Rob always says he does everything fast, except shoot.