Classification not Always Indicitive of Skill Level

[HuskySig]

I hate to say this, but one of the things I really like about IDPA is the rule that prizes must be given randomly. I can't get anything for shooting well, but nobody else is gonna get something for shooting poorly.

I agree with this 100%.

mattk

[Jake Di Vita]

Most of the issue with sandbagging is that people do it for prizes....usually those don't exist at level 1 matches. Special considerations can be made of course....such as the FL Open.

[glock_40_caliber]

According to the USPSA website, there are 299 GM cards issued, and 1226 M's. Of course, some of these are GM's or M's in multiple divisions. At ANY major match large enough to have a cash payout, these would be the shooters to take the top 3 positions of each division, with the exception of possibly revolver, where there are only 36 M's and GM's. Many, but not all, of these top shooters are also sponsered shooters; with at least one source to assist with match fees, ammo costs, travel expenses, etc. With strictly awarding just the top, you are basically awarding those that already recieve some benefit from being at the top level.

The majority of shooters will not ever achieve a division win at a major. I do not see the issue with awarding class winners at these matches some kind of payback. Remember, the checks for the division winners are written out of the entry fees from that 7th out of 10 D class shooter, or 2nd out of 7 B classer.

No matter what classification system is used, those who desire to will find a way to work it to their advantage. Same thing with the handicap system used in bowling and golf.

It seems that alot (not all, as there are a few exceptions) of the people complaining about rewarding the class winners, or even having classes at all, are just upset that someone else is getting "their" stuff at the prize table, or some variant of that theme, as they are already towards the top of the results list. It would be interesting to find out how many of those who are complaining now took advantage of or were given the benefit of the current system when they were on the way up.

Every major match I have been to publishes the prize policy ahead of time. If you don't like the way they are distributed, take a stand. Don't shoot that match.

Edited August 3, 2007 by glock_40_caliber

[JThompson]

According to the USPSA website, there are 299 GM cards issued, and 1226 M's. Of course, some of these are GM's or M's in multiple divisions. At ANY major match large enough to have a cash payout, these would be the shooters to take the top 3 positions of each division, with the exception of possibly revolver, where there are only 36 M's and GM's. Many, but not all, of these top shooters are also sponsered shooters; with at least one source to assist with match fees, ammo costs, travel expenses, etc. With strictly awarding just the top, you are basically awarding those that already recieve some benefit from being at the top level.

+1

[Jake Di Vita]

Most people think that sponsorships are readily available whenever you hit the Master or Grandmaster level. Let me assure you that it is anything but the case. Most shooters who are sponsored are only semi sponsored with equipment....usually their practice, travel, and match fees are all out of their own pocket. To be honest, the shooters that have sponsorships that help with their actual shooting throughout the season can probably be counted on 2 hands. There is no guaranteed "benefit" from being at the top level.

Of these 299 GM cards and 1226 M cards...how many do you think were sponsored when they were A or B class. Bottom line is, if you want to get good...you make the time for it. I dry fired 4 hours a night from midnight to 4 AM after 12 hours of work and waking up at 7 AM seven days a week for 8 months. I was 20 years old, had no money (still don't as a matter of fact) had to scrape ammo together for matches much less live fire practice.

To me...the people who are willing to sacrifice that much to become a proficient shooter has more than earned whatever meager dollars can be won at a USPSA match.

EVERY other sport I can think of only rewards the top....because they are rewarding performance...not mediocrity.

Here's the difference between USPSA and every other major sport in the country. Most shooters (the ones that believe everyone needs a pat on the back for being 3rd D at 34%) expect the rewards of a sport while they treat it as a hobby.

You want a good trip to the prize table, or a little extra cash to pay back what you spent to shoot the match? Earn it.

[Ben Stoeger]

With strictly awarding just the top, you are basically awarding those that already recieve some benefit from being at the top level.

You are awarding the people that earned it. Just because you think (quite incorrectly) that most GMs live in some magical land where bullets grow on trees, doesn't change the fact that the EARNED it.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Ben Stoeger

[Jake Di Vita]

Why does USPSA have to have major sponsors and be on ESPN for this to work?

And people already enter the match just to shoot it...the payment of entrance fees has never been even part of the equation here.

This isn't golf. The winner in each class is still being rewarded....what more of a "handicap" system do you want?

[EZ Bagger]

First of all USPSA is not a major sport, and doesn't have the major sponsors to underwrite the prizes. As soon as I can watch matches on ESPN your system will work, top dogs get the top prize. But for now the prizes are basically financed by the entrants in the match. Golf tournaments are a pretty close anology, no classes in the PGA, but you try to put on a golf tournament at your local club with no handicaps involved and you have got a tough sell job on your hands. Not to many guys willing to put up a big entrance fee when they are an 18 handicap, and there is a dozen scratch or better golfers in the field.

Careful. You go proposing that the GM's have to beat a B based on handicaps and a couple of people may end up in the emergency room!

[EZ Bagger]

First of all USPSA is not a major sport, and doesn't have the major sponsors to underwrite the prizes. As soon as I can watch matches on ESPN your system will work, top dogs get the top prize. But for now the prizes are basically financed by the entrants in the match. Golf tournaments are a pretty close anology, no classes in the PGA, but you try to put on a golf tournament at your local club with no handicaps involved and you have got a tough sell job on your hands. Not to many guys willing to put up a big entrance fee when they are an 18 handicap, and there is a dozen scratch or better golfers in the field.

Shooting (USPSA) isn't even a minor sport. There are more golfers in the smallest of states than we have in entire US membership.

[traxman]

Here's the difference between USPSA and every other major sport in the country. Most shooters (the ones that believe everyone needs a pat on the back for being 3rd D at 34%) expect the rewards of a sport while they treat it as a hobby.

Interesting observation. I am new and barely qualified to participate in the discussion, but I think this statement deserves some expansion.

As someone who competed in NCAA D1 athletics, I can tell you that the upper crust is the only small slice that receives the glory. In fact, if we broke it down to percentages, the chances of a good take at the prize table in our sport is WAAAAYYY higher than alot of mainstream sports. Have you seen a prize table at a softball tournament, local golf pro-am or bowling league finals? Also, what percentage of high-school footballers make the pros and rake in the dough?

I will play this sport for the game and enjoy the side benefit of improving my gun-handling abilities.

I will go to many more Level 3 matches and hope to expect nothing more than pride if I ever become competitive enough to vie for the winners circle.

But then again, you're only winner for a day, because somewhere, someone else is practicing, and when you meet him in competition, he may beat you.

Ignoring classifications and focusing on how I stack up against those I'm actually shooting against is how I judge my own progress.

[Ben Stoeger]

I will go to many more Level 3 matches and hope to expect nothing more than pride if I ever become competitive enough to vie for the winners circle.

But then again, you're only winner for a day, because somewhere, someone else is practicing, and when you meet him in competition, he may beat you.

Ignoring classifications and focusing on how I stack up against those I'm actually shooting against is how I judge my own progress.

AWESOME

[BrianATL]

First of all USPSA is not a major sport, and doesn't have the major sponsors to underwrite the prizes. As soon as I can watch matches on ESPN your system will work, top dogs get the top prize. But for now the prizes are basically financed by the entrants in the match. Golf tournaments are a pretty close anology, no classes in the PGA, but you try to put on a golf tournament at your local club with no handicaps involved and you have got a tough sell job on your hands. Not to many guys willing to put up a big entrance fee when they are an 18 handicap, and there is a dozen scratch or better golfers in the field.

Shooting (USPSA) isn't even a minor sport. There are more golfers in the smallest of states than we have in entire US membership.

Maybe there is good reason there are more golfers. It's a sport where the overweight middle age guy can compete on an even playing field with the top players in the game. Like it or not you have to appeal to the masses not just the guys who shoot over the 90% level.

[EZ Bagger]

Maybe there is good reason there are more golfers. It's a sport where the overweight middle age guy can compete on an even playing field with the top players in the game. Like it or not you have to appeal to the masses not just the guys who shoot over the 90% level.

That's my problem...I'm supposed to be golfing!!!

Neck injury in hockey made me go looking for a new sport...golf was not it.

[ChuckS]

--- snip --- It's a sport where the overweight middle age guy can compete on an even playing field with the top players in the game. --- snip ---

[EZ Bagger]

--- snip --- It's a sport where the overweight middle age guy can compete on an even playing field with the top players in the game. --- snip ---

[Sharyn]

but we know the only real winning is by those close to HOA...

No. This is what's wrong with the thinking... there is ONE winner, everyone else is 2nd, 3rd, 4th, LOSER.

And how many participants in this thread have shot 2 or more NATIONALS and/or 5 or more MAJORS?????

[EZ Bagger]

And how many participants in this thread have shot 2 or more NATIONALS and/or 5 or more MAJORS?????

Pick me, pick me.

Definitely not at the HOA level though.

[GeorgeInNePa]

but we know the only real winning is by those close to HOA...

No. This is what's wrong with the thinking... there is ONE winner, everyone else is 2nd, 3rd, 4th, LOSER.

And how many participants in this thread have shot 2 or more NATIONALS and/or 5 or more MAJORS?????

Me

5 Nationals, soon to be 6

30 or so majors since '92

[glock_40_caliber]

You are awarding the people that earned it. Just because you think (quite incorrectly) that most GMs live in some magical land where bullets grow on trees, doesn't change the fact that the EARNED it.

I never stated that GM's (or anyone else for that matter) live in some magical land where they can shoot for free all day long. Nor did I say that sponsorships were just handed out willy nilly to everyone that gets there percentage over 95%. Even if a shooter does manage to get an equipment sponsorship, that saves them roughly 25-50% at least on the equipment. So, for a $3,000 gun, they only pay $1,500. I could easily pay my way to two nationals including travel and entry fees for that savings.

When I used to compete in indoor archery tournaments, they even had a class system. It wasn't as complex as USPSA's, but it worked, even with possible sandbaggers. There shooters were broken down into Pro, AA, A, B, C, and if I remember right, D. To get a classification, you had to shoot at least one minor area match ( based on what part of the state you live in, not like our area matches), and you were all set for the major state, section, and national matches.

If you still have heartburn over the prize distribution after avoiding matches that don't do it the way you want them to, go one step further. Hold your own level II or III match where you can set the prizes up however you want. See what kind of result you get that way.

Edited August 4, 2007 by glock_40_caliber

[Sharyn]

heh heh... drinking and posting don't mix. My thought process was not fully displayed by my post. Funny to read now.

Anyways, how would anyone who hasn't shot 2 Nationals/5 Majors (given a couple of locals) ever get classified?

[tightloop]

heh heh... drinking and posting don't mix. My thought process was not fully displayed by my post. Funny to read now.

Anyways, how would anyone who hasn't shot 2 Nationals/5 Majors (given a couple of locals) ever get classified?

[JThompson]

And with that, I would like to pull this thread back from the prize drift... On topic if you please.

Thanks

Jim

[shred]

Prize table discussions are now in this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=51602

Future posts in here on prize tables will either be moved there or just plain deleted if the mod that runs across them is feeling lazy at that particular time.

[JThompson]

Prize table discussions are now in this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=51602

Future posts in here on prize tables will either be moved there or just plain deleted if the mod that runs across them is feeling lazy at that particular time.

Thanks Shred.

[DrShooter]

My classification score always leads my overall match percentages in major matches. I check how I'm doing relative to others by pulling the final seriatim into a spreadsheet and comparing the match percentage to the classifier percentage--and a large portion of the shooters are at least in the class below their rated class.

My class started out "C" and I consistently performed below that until I managed to match it at Area 1 after over a year.

This year at the Nationals I was a class under because I managed to make B in L10 the month of the match (by a fraction of a percent). This happened because 5 COFs that I do really well appeared right at the right time. Right after the Nats, my percentage dropped back into C, but I'm still officially B. I hope to learn into that rating. I imagine my experience is typical based on what I've seen in the data. If those classifiers had been spread throughout the year, I would still be C class. So, it's not perfect, but perfect is so intimidating.

The way I think of the classification system is this:

* It's a way to have a limited number of pre-specified COF for comparison purposes. Other sports are much more authoritarian when it comes to prescribing things.

* It's a way to get money from each official match in a way that performs a service and provides feedback to the members. You know they'd be taking that money some other way, so at least you're getting something.

* It's a way to build an experience database for the active membership. You could develop an unofficial local handicap league out of the data if you really wanted to. Or do other things, like offer a tailored drill study program. There's gold in them there data-mining hills--well maybe only metaphoric gold.

The only stage I've ever won was the classifier stage at a local match, so I can see where the suspicions about sandbagging come from. But classifiers are not actually easy. The fast shooters that win the freestyle stages hit no-shoots, double tap when they're supposed to be singles, and can't count. I've beat GMs heads up on classifiers---what's the payoff for sandbagging if you're a GM?

I finally decided that I shoot the classifiers best at my stage of development, and I just smoked their asses that day.