Classification not Always Indicitive of Skill Level

[dirtypool40]

EVERY other sport I can think of only rewards the top....because they are rewarding performance...not mediocrity.

Here's the difference between USPSA and every other major sport in the country. Most shooters (the ones that believe everyone needs a pat on the back for being 3rd D at 34%) expect the rewards of a sport while they treat it as a hobby.

Jake makes a great point here. We're keeping score so it's a contest, but so often we try to "market" matches to newer and lower % shooters as a kind of jamboree where everyone gets a participation ribbon. Somewhere along the way we lost sight of the purity of competition and replaced it with smaller and smaller brackets. It's odd to talk to newer or lower % shooters about going to a big match;

they almost always take one of two attitudes;

"I'm not good enough to go to a big match" - WRONG ATTITUDE treat a big match as a jamboree, it's fun, incredible stages and you get to measure yourself against the best shooters, often from around the nation.

"They won't GIVE me a prize as low as I am going to finish" - WRONG ATTITUDE, if you are looking to recoup your expenses you are in the wrong sport. There are what, may 2-3 matches a YEAR that pay the WINNER enough to cover his/her expenses for training and travel? This is a hobby, one that has yeilded incredible evolution in shooting technique, but it's still a hobby for better than 99.9% of us.

Please don't get me wrong, I am not anti-new person, anti-"C" or any such nonsense. See my posts in the prize table spin off thread; I'm all for random drawing, but I think AWARDING something for 1st - 5th sandbagger sends a horrible message. Divisions and classes shouldn't be billed as "entry level". If I was a serious Production or Single Stack shooter, putting up 90%+ classifiers, I would be offended if someone called it a "beginner's" division.

But how did we lose sight of it being a competition? When did the attitude (From D OR G) "I'm not going unless you give me a prize" become acceptable?

I REALLY want to go to the Limited Nationals this year. I am spending my vacation, and a ridiculous percentage of my income practicing and traveling there. If you think I'm sacrificing all that in hopes of winning a barrel or $100 certificate you're just...... nuts. I'm going because, even knowing with almost complete certainty that I am not your next national champion, I want to test myself against the best shooters in our sport, and that week, that is where they will be.

Edited August 6, 2007 by dirtypool40

[folsoml]

The more I think about the classification system the less I feel it has to do with the skills of our sport. First and foremost, in my mind, is movement... every classifier I've seen you stand on one place and bang away. When was the last time you shot a COF and stood in one place?

1st, I'll admit I haven't read all five pages of this thread, so if this has been covered, Sorry.

I agree with this. I was underclassified for a long time because I was not good at the static type classifiers. I was better at the run and gun type. At Georgia State year before last I shot in the 60% range overall, but a measly 28% on the classifier "Barrel of Fun." In fact, it was not until the Area 6 match in 2006 that I finally made B class--due to winning C class with a 67% overall. That match, I shot a whopping 15% on the classifier "Makin Change."

[HoMiE]

If your worrying about someone else's classification, your not focusing on what you need to be to become a better shooter (if that is your goal). There's always going to be sandbaggers and grandbaggers. Sooner or later it will catch up with THEM. But what's that got to do with YOU? Just shoot!

[tightloop]

The more I think about the classification system the less I feel it has to do with the skills of our sport. First and foremost, in my mind, is movement... every classifier I've seen you stand on one place and bang away. When was the last time you shot a COF and stood in one place?

1st, I'll admit I haven't read all five pages of this thread, so if this has been covered, Sorry.

I agree with this. I was underclassified for a long time because I was not good at the static type classifiers. I was better at the run and gun type. At Georgia State year before last I shot in the 60% range overall, but a measly 28% on the classifier "Barrel of Fun." In fact, it was not until the Area 6 match in 2006 that I finally made B class--due to winning C class with a 67% overall. That match, I shot a whopping 15% on the classifier "Makin Change."

See Post #6

[folsoml]

See Post #6

I figured ya'll were probably WAY off the original topic by now.

[Xfactor]

...If the AD moves you from "C" to "A", and you shoot your next 6 classifiers in the "C" % range, will you get moved back to "C" class?

Nope. From the USPSA website:

A person may be down-classed if the shooter requests in writing a review of is classification record; if there are no scores on record for at least one year in his assigned lass; and if the president of his club, or the Section Coordinator, writes and verifies that the shooter's ability actually is in the lower class requested. Final decision to down-class remains with President of USPSA. (Special circumstances may be considered in cases of severe, permanent injury.)

Does that mean that you never move down in class unless you request it?

[ChuckS]

...If the AD moves you from "C" to "A", and you shoot your next 6 classifiers in the "C" % range, will you get moved back to "C" class?

Nope. From the USPSA website:

A person may be down-classed if the shooter requests in writing a review of is classification record; if there are no scores on record for at least one year in his assigned lass; and if the president of his club, or the Section Coordinator, writes and verifies that the shooter's ability actually is in the lower class requested. Final decision to down-class remains with President of USPSA. (Special circumstances may be considered in cases of severe, permanent injury.)

Does that mean that you never move down in class unless you request it?

Yup.

[tightloop]

See Post #6

I figured ya'll were probably WAY off the original topic by now.

Now you know what you need to work on....

[Tim James]

I've always wondered why USPSA doesn't consider a statistical method like the Elo system in chess and other games: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

Elo-type systems are usually used in 1-on-1 games, but I wonder if it could be adapted to work with 50-100 people competing against each other at once?

This would not fix the class-prize issue because there could still be serious sandbagging until a prize match, and it would also encourage people to protect their ratings by not shooting certain matches or dropping out early, but at least it's a well-tested way to rate match performance.

[Perry F.]

Ben,

I'm all for rewarding performance from a top down level...which is why I made the scale the way I did. This way it still rewards performance at every level...but only rewards the winners.

From a competitor stand point....only the people that win or are in the top 3 of the division should be rewarded. There will always be a class system...and I think there should be...but there shouldn't be the "everyone wins" mentality that we have now.

What USPSA was going for when the class system was created was basically having 6 different matches within the same division...which I think is fine. Reward the winners of each of the 5 classes and reward the best 3 performances overall.

Be it a good thing or a bad thing....most people will try harder when there is a tangible reward for their work. By having monetary rewards for each class, USPSA shooters will improve more as a whole than any other way...and that is what we are trying to do...promote excellance in the manipulation of a pistol.

Jake,

I think we agree more than we disagree. However, I still do not think that class performance should be used as a means of awarding anything but trophies. I don't really care how hard other people want to try. I think its crazy to pick my pocket in the form of entry fee's, or rewarding donated prizes that could go to someone that actually deserves it by awarding it to a guy that happens to beat the 7 other D production shooters. 2% is still 2% to much if you ask me. Give him a trophy, an attaboy, and send him on his way. I don't see how we can "promote excellence in the manipulation of a pistol" by rewarding the most pedestrian of accomplishments with prizes.

I hear the "encouragement" reason cited for other things that drag the sport down as well. Like if an MD puts on stages that are just plain to easy, and says "well what about the new shooters"? Ummm.. its a match... not a goddamn ego massage for people that cant hit anything.

The same should also go for our prize table. You want a prize? Practice.

I hate to say this, but one of the things I really like about IDPA is the rule that prizes must be given randomly. I can't get anything for shooting well, but nobody else is gonna get something for shooting poorly.

So the D or C guy does not deserve a real prize? You deserve it more? You practice harder? Did he not earn it, by putting in hours of practice and dedication? Improving his performance level and classification? Trophy? They paid a match fee.

Winning an Area 5,6,7 etc.. match as a C shooter just might be a great acoomplishment to the person. Maybe not to you.

It also moves them up the ladder to become Master shooters.

Sorry your post and Jakes are somewhat egotistical. Immature?

I can't believe no one else replied, to the rubbish. I hope when I get a Masters card, I don't have your attitudes toward "undeserving" C,D shooters.

See ya, need to do my daily dryfire/reload.

Perry, c Class shooter(Non-sandbagging)

Edited August 9, 2007 by Perry F.

[EZ Bagger]

So the D or C guy does not deserve a real prize? You deserve it more? You practice harder? Did he not earn it, by putting in hours of practice and dedication? Improving his performance level and classification? Trophy? They paid a match fee.

Winning an Area 5 match as a C shooter just might be a great acoomplishment to the person. Maybe not to you.

It also moves them up the ladder to become Master shooters.

Sorry your post and Jakes are somewhat egotistical. Immature?

I can't believe no one else replied, to the rubbish. I hope when I get a Masters card, I don't have your attitudes toward undeserving C,D shooters.

See ya, need to do my daily dryfire/reload.

Perry, c Class shooter(Non-sandbagging)

I think the point is that most people were trying to avoid name calling and antagonistic tones...whether we agreed or not.

[Perry F.]

So the D or C guy does not deserve a real prize? You deserve it more? You practice harder? Did he not earn it, by putting in hours of practice and dedication? Improving his performance level and classification? Trophy? They paid a match fee.

Winning an Area 5 match as a C shooter just might be a great acoomplishment to the person. Maybe not to you.

It also moves them up the ladder to become Master shooters.

Sorry your post and Jakes are somewhat egotistical. Immature?

I can't believe no one else replied, to the rubbish. I hope when I get a Masters card, I don't have your attitudes toward undeserving C,D shooters.

See ya, need to do my daily dryfire/reload.

Perry, c Class shooter(Non-sandbagging)

I think the point is that most people were trying to avoid name calling and antagonistic tones...whether we agreed or not.

From my point of view, their posts are insulting and antagonistic. I can see you added nothing to the discussion.

[Ben Stoeger]

Perry,

DP40 Explains it better than I can:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...st&p=591759

I was attempting to be funny, not insulting. There is further discussion that was moved out of this thread that may clarify my point of view.

Later,

Ben

Edited August 9, 2007 by Ben Stoeger

[Flexmoney]

Administrator note:

Most of the prize tabel talk was moved to a different thread. Since then, that thread managed to get shut down because of the bickering that was going on...which wasn't going anywhere.

We try to avoid that here on Brian's Forum. We look to stick with civil discussions, and hope that they help our shooting.

[Ben Stoeger]

Perry,

Now that I have time for a more complete response, I can post something more meaningful.

I can share some stories that illustrate the problems with how we use the classification system.

Last year, Steve Moneypenny won first M at 3 area matches. He got a trophy, and a paid out (I think) for each of them. I think the next update after this 3rd win, he finally got his GM card. Is that fair? Is that right? So, last year he got lots of recognition and some money, this year, unless he is Dave Sevigny, Bob Vogel, or Matt Mink, the odds of him getting anything in the way of recognition or prizes is very slim. So, what is the right class for him?

Ronnie Casper has taken second in limited 10 at our last two section matches in Wisconsin. For this accomplishment, he gets no prize and no recognition. First C gets a trophy. Is that right? Is that fair?

My good friend and training buddy Matt Hooper is a D class production shooter in USPSA and a Marksman in IDPA. He got a first D trophy at this years WI section match. He didn’t shoot locally at all, because if he does, he will probably get bumped up to C class. If he sticks in D, he is almost guaranteed a “Class Win” at area 5. He will get a plaque and a paid out, as a reward for his non participation in Local matches. Is that right? Is that fair?

Look at a guy like me. I am laying down the match entry, travel, and training fee’s to shoot (and work) the Area 5 match. I am pretty sure that Bob Vogel will hand me my dick on a platter, but that’s fine. I am laying my money down, not for prizes, but because I might learn something. Unless his gun breaks on a big field course, I will not get a trophy or a pay out. I know this going into the match, and I am cool with it, because I want to learn how to shoot better, and getting your ass kicked is the surest way to do that.

I am going to Nat’s as well this year. I don’t plan on winning, and no F’in way will there be monetary gain. So why do I do it?

Hell, last week I trained so hard that my hand started bleeding. No biggie, put on a band aid and keep training. Because I am having the time of my life shooting and learning. This has been the best summer of my life. I go out to the range 4 or 5 times a week, and just shoot. I am having a ball.

You can think I am immature and egotistical if you want.. That’s your call. I don’t do what I do for trophy’s or recognition or prizes. I shoot because I f*#king love it. I may say some stuff that offends people sometimes, but that’s because I hate to see our sport sullied by this “boy I need to stay in C so I can have a chance to win something” mentality. Winning a class just means that you are on the right side of a line that some guy drew in the sand. It doesn’t really mean that much to me.

Later,

Ben

[mjbine]

Thumbs up Ben!

[Sean Gaines]

I think we keep talking about c and D class shooters non deserving because they are ranked lower. They deserve things also. But there is a select few that ruin it for the rest of the group in that class. Granted we have alot of good people in this sport, and we have a few in each class besides GM, that ruin it for the rest

Someone asked if people should be moved down in class. I think they should. How many of us know people who WERE competitive masters, way back when, who still have that title, but by extenuating circumstances,either work or just a long layoff from the sport, can't compete at that level anymore.....I know of a few shooters who were masters back in the day, who won't compete in that division anymore, because they feel there not competive(and I would agree with them) and have resorted to shooting another division because they are an A class shooter, in which they can somewhat compete.

We also have to look at it this way, were in sports were you can you participate with the best of the best in the world, and be squaded with them, and not be in the same leauge as them. I don't know of any sport that allows that. I think its a priviledge to be squaded with the lights of a Tomasie, Sevigny, jarret, manny etc

I think Jake has some good points in his system, but in all actuallity these posts are just a waste of time because nothing is ever going to come from it. I don't think we will see any change from it, hopefully I am wrong, because I think the classification system is the weakest link in our game today. We keep getting more shooters in this sport everyday. I don't want them to get discouraged or leave because the shooter in his class is missing targets on the classifiers and not moving up, and then wipping his tail at a majors consisitantly. We need this sport to grow!

Hopefully my last .02 cents on this post. Becuase I am tired of reading it.

[Jake Di Vita]

Hold on....let me understand this....I am egotistical and immature because I don't judge a class win to be on even par with a division win?!?!?

Let me ask you something. If you start working a new job and you have been there for a year, should you be getting the same benefits and pay as someone who has been working there for 5 years or 10 years? I already know you're going to say "it isn't the same thing." But it is....people who have put in more work do deserve it more. And still even they don't deserve it as much as the person who put in the most work.

I understand everyone starts somewhere....starting point or present skill level are not the issue here....the issue is aspirations. Do you want to be the best or settle for less? Most people settle. Because of that, to me talk - action = nothing.

While you may consider me egotistical and immature...I can live with that...in my eyes those things are better than being mediocre. I strive for excellance in everything I do and do not accept anything less.

[Perry F.]

I think we keep talking about c and D class shooters non deserving because they are ranked lower. They deserve things also. But there is a select few that ruin it for the rest of the group in that class. Granted we have alot of good people in this sport, and we have a few in each class besides GM, that ruin it for the rest

Someone asked if people should be moved down in class. I think they should. How many of us know people who WERE competitive masters, way back when, who still have that title, but by extenuating circumstances,either work or just a long layoff from the sport, can't compete at that level anymore.....I know of a few shooters who were masters back in the day, who won't compete in that division anymore, because they feel there not competive(and I would agree with them) and have resorted to shooting another division because they are an A class shooter, in which they can somewhat compete.

We also have to look at it this way, were in sports were you can you participate with the best of the best in the world, and be squaded with them, and not be in the same leauge as them. I don't know of any sport that allows that. I think its a priviledge to be squaded with the lights of a Tomasie, Sevigny, jarret, manny etc

I think Jake has some good points in his system, but in all actuallity these posts are just a waste of time because nothing is ever going to come from it. I don't think we will see any change from it, hopefully I am wrong, because I think the classification system is the weakest link in our game today. We keep getting more shooters in this sport everyday. I don't want them to get discouraged or leave because the shooter in his class is missing targets on the classifiers and not moving up, and then wipping his tail at a majors consisitantly. We need this sport to grow!

Hopefully my last .02 cents on this post. Becuase I am tired of reading it.

The sandbaggers can usually only do it once, and then they get bumped up automatically. Although, they could start the whole process over again in the next class.

I have to much pride to ever purposly do bad. It would be nice to peak in your class before a major match and not be bumped up. I am sure many people think of that.

[Heavy Metal Only]

replying to the origonal post : I shot my local club match last sat. and we had a stage 3 string 1st left hand only, then free style and then right hand only. and that was just one of the regular stages. Another was a 3 string of standing , kneeling, and then prone. I'm sure if you volenteered for your club matches, Help set-up. They will listen to your opinon. A good shooter can do good in all around shooting. It's all about practice.

[Perry F.]

Perry,

Now that I have time for a more complete response, I can post something more meaningful.

I can share some stories that illustrate the problems with how we use the classification system.

Last year, Steve Moneypenny won first M at 3 area matches. He got a trophy, and a paid out (I think) for each of them. I think the next update after this 3rd win, he finally got his GM card. Is that fair? Is that right? So, last year he got lots of recognition and some money, this year, unless he is Dave Sevigny, Bob Vogel, or Matt Mink, the odds of him getting anything in the way of recognition or prizes is very slim. So, what is the right class for him?

Ronnie Casper has taken second in limited 10 at our last two section matches in Wisconsin. For this accomplishment, he gets no prize and no recognition. First C gets a trophy. Is that right? Is that fair?

My good friend and training buddy Matt Hooper is a D class production shooter in USPSA and a Marksman in IDPA. He got a first D trophy at this years WI section match. He didn’t shoot locally at all, because if he does, he will probably get bumped up to C class. If he sticks in D, he is almost guaranteed a “Class Win” at area 5. He will get a plaque and a paid out, as a reward for his non participation in Local matches. Is that right? Is that fair?

Look at a guy like me. I am laying down the match entry, travel, and training fee’s to shoot (and work) the Area 5 match. I am pretty sure that Bob Vogel will hand me my dick on a platter, but that’s fine. I am laying my money down, not for prizes, but because I might learn something. Unless his gun breaks on a big field course, I will not get a trophy or a pay out. I know this going into the match, and I am cool with it, because I want to learn how to shoot better, and getting your ass kicked is the surest way to do that.

I am going to Nat’s as well this year. I don’t plan on winning, and no F’in way will there be monetary gain. So why do I do it?

Hell, last week I trained so hard that my hand started bleeding. No biggie, put on a band aid and keep training. Because I am having the time of my life shooting and learning. This has been the best summer of my life. I go out to the range 4 or 5 times a week, and just shoot. I am having a ball.

You can think I am immature and egotistical if you want.. That’s your call. I don’t do what I do for trophy’s or recognition or prizes. I shoot because I f*#king love it. I may say some stuff that offends people sometimes, but that’s because I hate to see our sport sullied by this “boy I need to stay in C so I can have a chance to win something” mentality. Winning a class just means that you are on the right side of a line that some guy drew in the sand. It doesn’t really mean that much to me.

Later,

Ben

Referring to Ronnie, there has to be a certain amount of people in your class before they give trophies. The 1:3 ratio.

If a C Production shoots against 12 other Pro. C shooters they give trophies to 3rd place. This makes sense, you have a larger pool of competitors in your class.

I am not sure about monetary prizes at Area matches. I know they raffled of prizes at Area 5, the last two years.

I am not interested or put as much weight in the monetary prizes.

I do have a problem, about your comments about questioning lower classes, deserving trophy or recognition. It does not sit with me well.

I did not see any humor in your post.

Edited August 9, 2007 by Perry F.

[tightloop]

There are two factions here: those that believe there should be some kind of prize for the shooters, and guys like me who are wondering what this feel good gesture is doing to the sport, society and the nation..

Shooting, as in life, not everyone wins...when we were kids not everyone made the Little League team, but we were still friends and went on...noone died, no one had lasting depression and had to be treated medically...it was just part of life.

This sport does not need shooters who need to win a prize for showing up, for mediocre shooting, or who get their feelings hurt because they did not win "something/anything"....Let them stay home and watch cricket on TV...

This sport does not need prize tables or cash pay outs for that matter...I have said it before and say it again here..this sport is not for the faint of heart or those that feel slighted because they did not win..let them do something/anything else...I know USPSA is all about having something for eferyone, but in our hearts, we know that is not possible...the sport is appealing to only a few....usually those with the strongest competitive drive..let the others stay home...sorry to sound harsh, but we don't need them..so what if the sport doesn't surpass SASS of trap or skeet or tiddlewinks for that matter...I for one, do not have to see 50 folks at a match to consider it a sucess..but I also do not think a match has to have a 200 round shot count to be attractive either..

Like Jake said, either practice hard and get better or stop whining...those who work the hardest deserve to win...everyone has the same opportunity at the start of their shooting careers....some choose to go to the top and some "settle"....if you settle, let the ones who work harder than you do, enjoy the product of their efforts. Just get in your car and either decide to work harder so you can join that group who are celebrating their wins,or just ride home feeling sorry for yourselves listening to the Funeral Durge....GET tough or forget it..

I know this will probably be zapped by the mods for being too severe, but that too is life...can't be Casper Milktoast all the time.

I feel a little better now, but still plan on trimming my toe nails later in the day with my chain saw...thanks..

Tightloop

Edited August 9, 2007 by tightloop

[Sean Gaines]

The sandbaggers can usually only do it once, and then they get bumped up automatically. Although, they could start the whole process over again in the next class.

I have to much pride to ever purposly do bad. It would be nice to peak in your class before a major match and not be bumped up. I am sure many people think of that.

The initial sandbagger does it once,then he gets moved up, then the second place sandbagger, who wasn't the better sandbagger, gets a chance at the next major match. No, I still feel we should base the classificiation on Match performance. Who tries to blow those, especially when you have to spend $500 plus to play. Easy on the pocket book to blow $20 on the local classifier, and not get moved up.

Nationals= 3 classifiers

Area/major matches(With 3 gms's in attendance)=2 classifiers

local matches ( the average of your top most current 6 local classifiers, like we have it now) count as 1 classifier

average those 6 classifiers and you get one % and that is your ranking percentage.

and if you win a major match with enough people in that class than automatic bump up to the next class.

Can also have demotions in class

I think this gives us a true representation of where we stand according to the top dogs.

[Jake Di Vita]

Perry,

Umm, I'm not sure what you mean by a sandbagger can only do it once? There is no provision for automatically bumping shooters right now....most sand baggers (especially some foreign shooters who do not even shoot classifiers in our system) do it numerous times and are still doing it now.

For two, Ben was talking 2nd overall for Ronnie. There is currently no award for 2nd overall. There are class winners and Division winner.

[Perry F.]

Perry,

Umm, I'm not sure what you mean by a sandbagger can only do it once? There is no provision for automatically bumping shooters right now....most sand baggers (especially some foreign shooters who do not even shoot classifiers in our system) do it numerous times and are still doing it now.

For two, Ben was talking 2nd overall for Ronnie. There is currently no award for 2nd overall. There are class winners and Division winner.

I know, it says something in the rule book, if you win a big match(level 3or4), you may get bumped up.

Maybe the rules should be more concrete.

Your issues with whats going on in IPSC, is not why I posted, I am concerned that you think our lower Classes, don't warrant any recognition.

In Ronnie's case, Where do the awards end and at what point do your stop giving awards. I think, the top 3 overall winners in a Area match warrant recognition, that is a great effort and performance.

Perry