Classification not Always Indicitive of Skill Level

[XRe]

I know, it says something in the rule book, if you win a big match(level 3or4), you may get bumped up.

Maybe the rules should be more concrete.

No... it has nothing to do w/ class wins. It has to do w/ percentage of finish against 3+ GMs. You can win your class 100 times, but if you're below the percentage required to be in the next class up in those matches, you will not be bumped up. Someone who wants to sandbag can do so indefinitely - unless an SC or AD writes a letter to USPSA with appropriate proof to request the person be moved up (and that's exceedingly rare).

[j2fast]

I find this whole discussion interesting and entertaining at the moment because if someone looked I may be the poster child for part of this discussion. I've pretty much been a C shooter since I started 3 years ago and have improved maybe 8 or 9% based on classifier scores. I've made it to 4 local matches this year and 2 majors (both within the same classification cycle). This year for the first time I had laid down some decent runs and actually won a couple stages on the local level but to me that's not really anything to write home about although its a nice accomplishment. When I registered for both major matches I was a C class shooter running in the 50% neighborhood based on my classifier scores. I went to my first major of the year relaxed with no expectations and all of the sudden when the scores came out I won my class by 15 places in the overall while beating a big chuck of B shooters as well. So two weeks or so later I roll into the Area match not as relaxed thinking, I wonder if the last match was a fluke? So in this match I lay an egg by logging 130 penalty points which had I at least put a bullet anywhere within the outer scoring border on those targets means I cost myself 156 points across 11 stages. The end result; I won my class again but this time by a scant .67%. So at a much lower level than Steve M (using Ben's example), am I a C class shooter or a B class shooter, am I the shooter than won his class by 15 paces or the one that got 130 penalty points?? I can't sandbag, it's not in me, I spent too many years being fiercely competitive in everything else where I've been a competitor or coach.

ETA: Apparently everything I said is irrelevant because I just read XRe's post. So I guess, by USPSA standards, I'm a C shooter since there were 3 GM's in my division at both matches and I still shot less than 60%. I was operating under the wrong assumption that winning your class got you moved up.; guess I need to read the rule book again. I still believe that the classification system is not an accurate judge of a shooters ability as they translate to overall match performance.

Edited August 9, 2007 by j2fast

[Jim Norman]

How about this idea:

A GM wins the match, An A shooter finishes 3rd, 2nd goes to a B shooter.

There are sufficient people to pay 1st thru third in each class.

I suggest we look at this possibility. Gm wins overall and gets the "Big Trophy" The B shooter wins A and gets first A, the former first A now gets second and so on down the line. In other words, an immediate bump regardless of percentage based on order of finish.

No more three B shooters ahead of first A.

I suppose I should go lay in some burn gel and maybe a flame suit.

Jim

[tightloop]

How about this idea:

A GM wins the match, An A shooter finishes 3rd, 2nd goes to a B shooter.

There are sufficient people to pay 1st thru third in each class.

I suggest we look at this possibility. Gm wins overall and gets the "Big Trophy" The B shooter wins A and gets first A, the former first A now gets second and so on down the line. In other words, an immediate bump regardless of percentage based on order of finish.

No more three B shooters ahead of first A.

I suppose I should go lay in some burn gel and maybe a flame suit.

Jim

ROTFLMAO

[Flexmoney]

For Major matches to count as classifiers, there need to be 3 GM's in the division...division, not the match. Then, if they all shot at their appropriate skill level...that match can be used as a classifier...in the Match Director requests it to be so. Sometimes, they may do that based off of one GM...but it has to be somebody like Dave or Robbie (National Champ). And, it it is just them, well that won't help anybody's percentages to move up, because Dave or Robbie will have won most of the stage points...putting everybody ~10% lower than usually.

To get bumped for winning your class, you have to have the GM's (as above), plus you need to score a percentage in the match that is at the next classification level.

So...I've know of a few that have got bumped up at big matches, but most get there through the classification system.

[Perry F.]

I know, it says something in the rule book, if you win a big match(level 3or4), you may get bumped up.

Maybe the rules should be more concrete.

No... it has nothing to do w/ class wins. It has to do w/ percentage of finish against 3+ GMs. You can win your class 100 times, but if you're below the percentage required to be in the next class up in those matches, you will not be bumped up. Someone who wants to sandbag can do so indefinitely - unless an SC or AD writes a letter to USPSA with appropriate proof to request the person be moved up (and that's exceedingly rare).

I got this off the USPSA website

Scores From Major Matches

"A shooter's performance in larger matches and tournaments may also be used to help establish a classification if at least three Grand Masters completed the match within a specific Division and performed at a level high enough to be considered a national standard. Each division is evaluated separately based on this criteria, so it may be possible for scores from one division to be used while another division is not."

"In addition, if the competitor shoots an Area Championship or major tournament and wins first or second in a class higher than his or her current classification, the member may be promoted to that higher class, except for Grand Master."

Edited August 9, 2007 by Perry F.

[boo radley]

This sport does not need shooters who need to win a prize for showing up, for mediocre shooting, or who get their feelings hurt because they did not win "something/anything"....Let them stay home and watch cricket on TV...

[....long rant deleted ]

Tightloop

Please. You keep trying to parlay the reality of this RECREATION/SPORT into some kind of tough-assed, "only the strong survive" fantasy. It's weird, and it's insulting.

It obviously requires tremendous sacrifice to succeed at the highest levels in USPSA/IPSC, but that's no less true of other sports. In fact maybe less so, given the demographics and obscure nature of this recreation. Competitive cyclists/tennis players/runners/etc. don't sacrifice? And they can't smoke, and lug 50-lbs of beer gut around, either.

The classification system is clearly very popular, and for that reason it should be kept. I have yet to see proof that it's not an accurate predictor of major match finish, especially in the B/C/D rankings, and at the very top where clearly a small segment is THAT much better than everyone else.

As far as prizes and prize money...I have no comment.

[Flexmoney]

I've always wondered why USPSA doesn't consider a statistical method like the Elo system in chess and other games: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

Elo-type systems are usually used in 1-on-1 games, but I wonder if it could be adapted to work with 50-100 people competing against each other at once?

This would not fix the class-prize issue because there could still be serious sandbagging until a prize match, and it would also encourage people to protect their ratings by not shooting certain matches or dropping out early, but at least it's a well-tested way to rate match performance.

There was such a system, though not sanctioned by USPSA.

Our forum member, Dowter devised it. Dowter hasn't been around in a long while and I don't know that he is still shooting. You should be able to find a thread on it, started by him, on the forum.

He did comparative rankings, using the Nationals winners as the 100% basis for comparison. Pretty neat, and seemed accurate.

[Jake Di Vita]

That may be what is written on USPSA's site....but it doesn't happen.

If you don't believe me, look at past results for area matches. Record the names of the class winners and look in other matches and see if they are still that class or not.

[Flexmoney]

Right..then 'somebody' has to manually look at those...

Like I mentioned, the reality is...we move up by shooting classifiers in all but a few cases.

Admin note #2:

If we just keep getting bickering back and forth, I'll close this thread or delete the offending posts.

If we can discuss...in a civil manner and keep the thread moving along with information, then it can stay open.

(In other words...knock off the back and forth bickering. Ya follow ?)

[Coach]

It says may be bumped up not will be bumped up. I know of a Dclass who was bumped for winning their class at an area and a C class who was bumped for winning and area. So it does happen, but perhaps not as much as it should.

Just because I beat every D class shooter in the Area 5 match that does not mean I am a C class shooter does it?

[Kingman]

They got me in the class bump up a couple years ago. I was C class and ended up winning C class with a 67% at the sectional or tristate. About 2 to 3 months later before my classifiers moved me up, I got a card for B class and a letter stating because of the performance at those matches. I think someone has to do that manually.

[Tim James]

I've always wondered why USPSA doesn't consider a statistical method like the Elo system in chess and other games: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

There was such a system, though not sanctioned by USPSA.

Our forum member, Dowter devised it. Dowter hasn't been around in a long while and I don't know that he is still shooting. You should be able to find a thread on it, started by him, on the forum.

He did comparative rankings, using the Nationals winners as the 100% basis for comparison. Pretty neat, and seemed accurate.

Here are the threads:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...ic=2635&hl=

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...c=2630&st=0

I'm not sure how this compares to the Elo system because I haven't thought about it much, but I'm glad someone at least tried something!

[Jim Norman]

How about this idea:

A GM wins the match, An A shooter finishes 3rd, 2nd goes to a B shooter.

There are sufficient people to pay 1st thru third in each class.

I suggest we look at this possibility. Gm wins overall and gets the "Big Trophy" The B shooter wins A and gets first A, the former first A now gets second and so on down the line. In other words, an immediate bump regardless of percentage based on order of finish.

No more three B shooters ahead of first A.

I suppose I should go lay in some burn gel and maybe a flame suit.

Jim

ROTFLMAO

TL,

What is so funny? As it stands now, we see C beating B and B beating A. Why should that not result in "Instant Bump" I will make the addition that at least two GM level shooters have to be in attendence in the divison. Also, With most, not all, but certinaly most class finishes being below percentage the old win your class with a percentage above your class and get bumped simply is becoming more an dmore unlikely. The idea I put up takes that into account. If your class win is higher than that of the next higher class's class winner, then you certainly should be the winner of the higher class.

Now, you want to sandbag? Go ahead, you win, you move, no more sandbag. And I am not really sure that there is as much sandbagging going on as people think. Once you reach A, you have two choices, play safe or burn. If you play safe, you won;t lose, but you certainly will not move up. If you burn the classifer, you have a pretty good shot at trashing it. but if you don't, then you have an equally good shot at a good classifer that will move you up. So if yo shoot concervatively, you hear Sandbagger and if you attempt to burn it down and screw up, you hear....Sandbagger. If you actually put up a good score, you hear... About time Sandy.

Jim

[tightloop]

Jim

I was laughing at your burn gel and flame suit comments....nothing more..

[JThompson]

If a B guy beats out 3 As then he is an A guy in my book. No GMs need to be there. You beat out three of the above class you are that class.... period. If you are an M and Beat 3 GMs... guess what? You're a GM.

That seems reasonable and very simple. In smaller clubs such as mine it would be nice to have four cool stages instead of 3 and a BS class.

Edited August 9, 2007 by JThompson

[HSMITH]

Jim, shoot some more outdoor matches and big matches. There is so much more to it than that.

[Jake Di Vita]

If you beat 3 GMs, but Max Michel pummels you by 25%, are you still a GM?

[tightloop]

If you beat 3 GMs, but Max Michel pummels you by 25%, are you still a GM?

You might be, just at the bottom of the scale..

[Jim Norman]

Jim

I was laughing at your burn gel and flame suit comments....nothing more..

My apologies.

[Jim Norman]

Jim, shoot some more outdoor matches and big matches. There is so much more to it than that.

HS,

If you are refering to me, feel free to look at my classification record. I will be the first to admit that I am a newbie by comparrison to many here, but I have shot at least one National a year since 2000, plus numerous Area, Section, special matches and more locals than I can remember.

I get called a sandbagger on a regular basis. I am lacking in consitancy, If I could put it all together for a whole match, i might just wins someday. Sadly I have moments of near brilliance interrupted by long periods of "Also-ran-itis"

I have been one good classifer away from M on more than one occasion. Then I get a low, but counts and lose a good score and drop away from the top again. THis is why I posted the thoughts I did on instant bump for the D that beats all the C's or the C that beats all the B's or the B that beats all the A's. I will go so far as to say that if a young upcomming shooter that is a newly minted M beats three GMs at a major, he should be seriously considered for a bump. Assumes that he GMs were in the top tier and not GMs that are sadly on teh other side of the peak.

(And just for safety, I am adding a layer of burn gel and checking over the burn suit)

Jim

[HSMITH]

Jim Norman, my apologies sir, I was talking to Jim Thompson.

I would appreciate contact info for burn gel and a suit, I tend to get ahead of myself enough to have use for these things.....

[Heavy Metal Only]

I joined this shooting game to see how good I can do. You Don't think that everyones a true honest person do you. If you do your best you will shine through. Most people like myself might not ever become an "GM" shooter, But that ok. Carmas part of this game too. Mabey the day you decide to sandbag, you'll get DQed or have a squib on the firet stage. Its funny how it all comes togather.

[JThompson]

If you beat 3 GMs, but Max Michel pummels you by 25%, are you still a GM?

Ya well, we make a new class for Max Robbie and the like. We could make the UGMs for Universal Grand Masters, as I think they are aliens anyway.

The question you pose goes both ways Jake... if Max beat them by 25% are they GMs?

Edited August 9, 2007 by JThompson

[Ben Stoeger]

Your issues with whats going on in IPSC, is not why I posted, I am concerned that you think our lower Classes, don't warrant any recognition.

Ahhhh.. This may be the problem.

Perry you should re-read my earlier posts. I stated that I do indeed feel that classes should be recognized with trophy awards. I just don't feel that money or prizes should be distributed based on class.