glock_40_caliber Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 I think production is just that....shoot it how it came from glock......other than sights and grip tape no changes to the gun should be allowed. At the risk of drifting this thread, comments like this amaze me. Just because some folks only do a few modifications to their blaster, (sights, grip tape) they think nothing else should be allowed. Please explain what the practifal difference is between the action work that is allowed by the rules, and grip tape and sights as allowed by the rules. None of those are "factory," so what is the deal? The trigger alone will not make the difference between winning and losing. You still need to be able to press the trigger without moving the sights off the target. Heck, after Nationals, I'm dropping the dreaded 8# connector into my old G17, setting it up the same as my duty gun, and trying a few matches that way. I think it's pretty safe to say that the difference will not be too great from what I could with my 34 or 35 with full race gear. Ok, stepping down from my soap box now.... Good looking out on this one, Gary. It is nice to know some on the BOD actually listen to the membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 Happy day! I'm disappointed that my AD not only voted for it, but introduced it. No I didn't talk to him directly, but I posted on the USPSA forum as I was under the understanding that that was the proper place to express opinions. The poll in the forum was around 73% against the proposed rule. Seems many ADs and the Prez. wanted to shove it down our thoats anyway. No matter what division you shoot in, if you're into competition, you're into tweeking your gun. I don't care if the name is Production, requiring that guns should be out of the box stock is, well, just silly, IMHO. Requiring guns be box stock certainly does not level the playing field, if that is the purpose. Just the manufacturing tollerances in mass produced guns means that many stock guns of whatever brand will be sub-par and in need of some work to make them competitive. Even my carry/duty Glocks have had some work on the triggers. The only requirement should be that they are safe, and that no safety mechanism has been deactivated. Keep that in mind over the next month... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 Believe me George ......... WE WILL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 There is no sense in making a rule that no one is going to follow or that is nearly impossible to regulate. It was a bad idea, followed by bad actions for those on the BOD that voted for it. I think it was an effort by those that proposed it & voted for it, to try to kill the division. This is of course just my opinion. By the way, my production guns would pass the trigger pull, it is just the principle of the thing that I am against. I don't want one more piece of legislation to get in the way of shooting. Thank you 5 AD that stood up against the rule!!! I will remember when I get my chance to vote. MLM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2ipsc Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 ...Seems many ADs and the Prez. wanted to shove it down our thoats anyway...Keep that in mind over the next month... No need to be melodramatic or vindictive. The BOD is populated by intelligent people, and the proposal was reasonably well thought through. One can understand the motivation to forestall yet another (perceived) "equipment race" - I talked to my AD, and understood where the proponents were coming from (even though I personally disagreed that the "solution" addressed the "problem"). However, it would have been an administrative nightmare - effectively unenforceable - every "good intent" negated by creative manipulation of (calibrated?) weights, the vagaries introduced when one tries to apply a technique suited to crisp single action breaks (can you say "bullseye gun?") to plastic safety levers and all other manner of "staple gun" triggers, and, last but not least, a quick stop at the safety area to change a part or two, and - voilà - "problem" solved. In simple point of fact, NOTHING is going to stop the evolution of ANY category, and the perpetual search for that one competitive "advantage" (perceived or otherwise). Had this motion passed and been implemented, I feel confident in predicting that there would be a hasty reversal in short order when the hard realities of enforcing it "in the field" became evident... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 (edited) While only one person knows what is in their heart, I can say that I never heard, or perceived any ill will in the positions taken on this issue. Some felt this was the lynch pin of the Production Division and supported it. I felt it was not, and opposed it. We are allowing many modifications to Produciton Division guns, actually more than were previously allowed. In light of this, to bow up on the weight of the trigger did not make sense to me. Additionally, the logistical aspects of this were more than I was willing to accept. We are having the chrono folks do everything but CT and MRI scans now, adding another duty such as this was more than I wanted. I could see a shooter going to a series of matches and makes it, makes it, whoops welcome to open, makes it, whoops open again, etc. And all of this without the shooter doing anything to the trigger other than shooting it. It just wasn't worth it, IMO. Gary Edited July 21, 2007 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robomanusa Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 I think production is just that....shoot it how it came from glock......other than sights and grip tape no changes to the gun should be allowed. At the risk of drifting this thread, comments like this amaze me. Just because some folks only do a few modifications to their blaster, (sights, grip tape) they think nothing else should be allowed. Please explain what the practifal difference is between the action work that is allowed by the rules, and grip tape and sights as allowed by the rules. None of those are "factory," so what is the deal? The trigger alone will not make the difference between winning and losing. You still need to be able to press the trigger without moving the sights off the target. Heck, after Nationals, I'm dropping the dreaded 8# connector into my old G17, setting it up the same as my duty gun, and trying a few matches that way. I think it's pretty safe to say that the difference will not be too great from what I could with my 34 or 35 with full race gear. Ok, stepping down from my soap box now.... Good looking out on this one, Gary. It is nice to know some on the BOD actually listen to the membership. I was being nice....some folks have issues with glare or sweaty hands...sights and grip tape would only make the weapon safer in there hands(which safety should always come first)... It also wouldnt bother me a bit if the production rules said no modifications allowed whatsoever....shoot the gun exactly how it came from factory...thats how it really should be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 ...Seems many ADs and the Prez. wanted to shove it down our thoats anyway...Keep that in mind over the next month... No need to be melodramatic or vindictive. The BOD is populated by intelligent people, and the proposal was reasonably well thought through. One can understand the motivation to forestall yet another (perceived) "equipment race" - I talked to my AD, and understood where the proponents were coming from (even though I personally disagreed that the "solution" addressed the "problem"). However, it would have been an administrative nightmare - effectively unenforceable - every "good intent" negated by creative manipulation of (calibrated?) weights, the vagaries introduced when one tries to apply a technique suited to crisp single action breaks (can you say "bullseye gun?") to plastic safety levers and all other manner of "staple gun" triggers, and, last but not least, a quick stop at the safety area to change a part or two, and - voilà - "problem" solved. In simple point of fact, NOTHING is going to stop the evolution of ANY category, and the perpetual search for that one competitive "advantage" (perceived or otherwise). Had this motion passed and been implemented, I feel confident in predicting that there would be a hasty reversal in short order when the hard realities of enforcing it "in the field" became evident... I'm NOT melodramatic, but I am extremely vindictive. Also, only part of the above quote is mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 (edited) Either tone it down or lock the thread. A democratic vote is not "shoving" anything down anyone's throat. There's a difference between intelligent disagreement and mud-slinging. I'm really sick and tired of the latter. It's totally uncalled for. My area director and I don't see eye to eye on everything, but that doesn't mean I don't have an enormous amount of respect for both him and his position on the issues. In short, knock it off. Thank you. Edited July 21, 2007 by EricW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 I can see why the 3# rule was proposed, but don't think it is enforceable. Also, there are too many gun types and I think it would create further problems with certain guns being able to have one pull weight on first DA shot and lower pull after its in SA. I think production shouldn't be an equipment race, but you should be able to "tune" your gun the the best that it can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 A big thanks to Gary, Charlie and the others that voted this down. I don't shoot Production but could see the problems and time it would take to enforce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 I did speak to my AD, as well as several others and the Pres. While some agreed and others didn't, I rarely came away with the belief that I was speaking to a brick wall. I know my AD, Bruce Gary, well enough and speak to him often enough that I believe that he had USPSA's best interest at heart. We disagreed on whether a trigger pull was useful or not. I'm know that Bruce put a lot of thought into it. While I strongly disagree that a 3lb pull rule is a good thing, I probably wouldn't say no to a two tiered pull rule, i.e. 5lbs for first DA shot or 3 lbs for striker fired for example. I doubt every time a rule change is voted upon 4-5 that everyone thinks that there is a big conspiracy to shove anything down our throats. 4 people thought one thing, 5 thought another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerettaRacer Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Well, I was FOR the 3 lb rule. With USPSA violating their own rules by allowing single action guns in a double action division (ie.first shot MUST be double action) and now not imposing a minimum trigger weight rule, I have given up my membership in USPSA and my RO cert. and see no reason to continue to support this organization with my time and money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobob Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Well, I was FOR the 3 lb rule. With USPSA violating their own rules by allowing single action guns in a double action division (ie.first shot MUST be double action) and now not imposing a minimum trigger weight rule, I have given up my membership in USPSA and my RO cert. and see no reason to continue to support this organization with my time and money. Huh? Not sure I understand your reasoning, nor why you're so upset. Well, if it must be, don't let the door hit you.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 As Eric pointed out, there's enough emotion in this subject already and it won't take much more to have this thread Closed. Please remember this tidbit from the Forum Guidelines: "Attitude Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful. No bickering. Regardless of the subject matter. Antagonistic, offensive, or quarrelsome tones are not acceptable." Thanks in advance.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobob Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Goes to show that the BOD did the right thing in voting this down. If it had passed there may have been a minor insurrection, and over a relatively insignificant (in the scheme of things) rule change. For whatever part I've played in downgrading the tone of this thread, I apologize. I do, however, agree with everything I say, even if the tone is somewhat over-enthusiastic (due, in part, to consumption of good, if not great, bourbon). Time for a group hug! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Group hug? Nah... Pass the bourbon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Well, I was FOR the 3 lb rule. With USPSA violating their own rules by allowing single action guns in a double action division (ie.first shot MUST be double action) and now not imposing a minimum trigger weight rule, I have given up my membership in USPSA and my RO cert. and see no reason to continue to support this organization with my time and money. Like Glocks, M&P and XD's? Times are a changing, DA is giving way to striker fired guns, so what do you do? I never understood why there is a bias against SA (or striker fired) guns myself. I think the trigger pull would have been a real headache and not sure what problem it would have solved. As far as a "arms race" with light triggers, I just don't see it. I do a lot of trigger jobs, and MOST of the folks don't shoot them in competition, they just want better guns. To me, Production is much more about "how" you shoot, than "what" you shoot. I can't imagine quiting a sport because the modify or changing rules, but then again, I just love to shoot. I'll voice my opinion and back up my thoughts, but I'll shoot whatever the rules may be, for as long as I can. Heck, I will even shoot and IDPA, regardless of how silly I think some of the rules are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobob Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Heck, I will even shoot and IDPA, regardless of how silly I think some of the rules are. I was just going to agree with you 100%. Then you had to go and say that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 I'm for a light trigger pull rule as well. The usual arguments go: 1- "I already paid big $ for this investment..." 2- "the good shooters will always win anyway.." 3 - "it's too hard to measure.." Point 1 - race parts aren't an investment and a 2-year grandfather shouldn't bother anybody that can afford to shoot. An immediate cut-in would hurt people. Point 2 it's pretty much an argument for either side. Point 3 is basically saying our chrono people aren't as smart as the rest of the world that can handle a 5lb rule.. So, it all boils down to: 4 - "I should be allowed to mod the hell out of it, just because this is America, darn it!", which of course translates into one person's opinion of the "Spirit of Production" verses anothers.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Heck, I will even shoot and IDPA, regardless of how silly I think some of the rules are. I was just going to agree with you 100%. Then you had to go and say that! You won't shoot IDPA because of the silly rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 I'm for a light trigger pull rule as well. The usual arguments go:1- "I already paid big $ for this investment..." 2- "the good shooters will always win anyway.." 3 - "it's too hard to measure.." Point 1 - race parts aren't an investment and a 2-year grandfather shouldn't bother anybody that can afford to shoot. An immediate cut-in would hurt people. Point 2 it's pretty much an argument for either side. Point 3 is basically saying our chrono people aren't as smart as the rest of the world that can handle a 5lb rule.. So, it all boils down to: 4 - "I should be allowed to mod the hell out of it, just because this is America, darn it!", which of course translates into one person's opinion of the "Spirit of Production" verses anothers.. I am still all for a trigger limit in Open. (j/k folks...keep away with the pitch forks) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxtrotuniformlima Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Either tone it down or lock the thread. A democratic vote is not "shoving" anything down anyone's throat. There's a difference between intelligent disagreement and mud-slinging. I'm really sick and tired of the latter. It's totally uncalled for. My area director and I don't see eye to eye on everything, but that doesn't mean I don't have an enormous amount of respect for both him and his position on the issues. In short, knock it off. Thank you. I 100% agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 I'm for a light trigger pull rule as well. The usual arguments go:1- "I already paid big $ for this investment..." 2- "the good shooters will always win anyway.." 3 - "it's too hard to measure.." Point 1 - race parts aren't an investment and a 2-year grandfather shouldn't bother anybody that can afford to shoot. An immediate cut-in would hurt people. Point 2 it's pretty much an argument for either side. Point 3 is basically saying our chrono people aren't as smart as the rest of the world that can handle a 5lb rule.. So, it all boils down to: 4 - "I should be allowed to mod the hell out of it, just because this is America, darn it!", which of course translates into one person's opinion of the "Spirit of Production" verses anothers.. I am still all for a trigger limit in Open. (j/k folks...keep away with the pitch forks) Yeah! they should allow comps in Production. That would be cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Middle Man Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Flex, have you forgotten about your special thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts