Sight picture

[kimmie]

I'm an NRA firearms instructor and teach on a regular basis at a local club here in Boston. I find one of the HARDEST concepts to teach is the sight picture. We do actual range time and use .357 revolvers (shoot .38's) with fixed sights. And guaranteed at least 75% of the students are cluless about the sight picture even after 7 hours of classroom instruction, pictures, diagrams, and so on and so on and so on. Even during dry fire practice in the classroom, I see muzzles pointed at the ceiling and at the floor while they swear they're sighted on the X!!!! I've even taken close up pictures of myself holding a handgun with the proper alignment and with improper alignment (didn't realize I was double jointed . And they still don't get it! Anyone know of any links or products, or have any tried and proved methods to help teach a proper sight picture? Any and all suggestions welcomed!!!!

Thanks. Donna

[Too_Slow]

The easiest way to show them a correct sight picture would be to tape a straw to the sights. Then tell the students that they need to look through the straw to see the top of the front sight with the taget in the background. If they are not holding the gun at the correct angle they can not see through the straw.

Brian

Edited May 21, 2007 by Too_Slow

[kevin c]

The Burner's instructional series had a nice section where he had a zoomed in view of his iron sighted pistol, taken by a camera over his shoulder. He himself watched the sight picture on a monitor.

His recoil control wasn't as good as he normally had it, since he had to change his platform a lot to acommodate the camera and see the monitor (still way better than me ), but he could let the viewer see exactly what he sees when he breaks the shot, and also how the sight tracks.

You could check out Jerry's website, or you could try to record yourself the same way. I think it might be a bit easier for your students to get wrapped around the idea seeing it dynamically in a video as opposed to diagrams or still photos.

[kimmie]

Thanks to both of you for your suggestions I'm going to look into both of them!

Donna

[Flexmoney]

No target.

If they have nothing else to look at, then the sights can become the focal point.

A blank wall or a clear berm are good.

Shooter also like to see there hits in live fire. I've put a black t-shirt over the target to keep them from being able to see the holes.

[shred]

Give them a pencil and paper and make them draw 'what they see' when they're sighting on the target.

Lots of interesting things show up then.

[halvey]

Save yourself a headache. Just teach point shooting!

[JThompson]

Save yourself a headache. Just teach point shooting!

No thanks... I hate painting the range walls and ceiling.

[benos]

Give them a pencil and paper and make them draw 'what they see' when they're sighting on the target.

Lots of interesting things show up then.

That's a good one.

If they shoot at Bullseye-type targets, turn the targets around backwards so they're shooting at a white piece of paper with no target on it. Most people will a shooter tighter, more centered group at the backside of the target then they will if they're shooting at the bullseye.

And keep telling them, while they're shooting - even wispering in their ear - "Look right at the front sight."

be

[kimmie]

Wow - Brian answered my post!!!!!!

But seriously, lots of great suggestions guys. And I intend to try them all. Well, I might pass on the point shooting (the range takes shot up light bulbs out of my pay check ).

I've used the backwards target several times with good success. I've noticed even 'I' shoot tighter groups on plain white paper with maybe just a + for a bullseye. And I like the idea of them drawing what they see. And yes, my mantra is 'front sight, front sight, front sight!!!!!!!'

Thanks for all the great ideas and I'll let you know how it works out!

Donna

[AWLAZS]

I made a gun out of wood with extra large sights. This helped quite a bit

[Overkill]

At Frontsight they had a sheetmetal sign the shape of a target and an over sized front and rear site (separate so you could position them independantly) made out of that pliable magnetic sheet material like a removable car door sign. With this they could pretty easily illustrate to the whole class what a correct sight picture looks like, follow through, site rise, etc.

Most "white board" chalk boards are metal and will attract a magnet. If you've got one where you teach or can pack one along, you can draw a target of the size of your choosing, and then position the front and rear sights where you want them.

[kimmie]

I made a gun out of wood with extra large sights. This helped quite a bit

I've actually seen that - another instructor I know has one and I wondered where she got it from. I think I'll hit Home Depot this weekend and pick up some wood and try to make one. It's so hard to convey a 3 dimensional theory in 2 dimension.

I'll also check out Frontsights web site and see if I can find anything on the magnetic sight picture.

More great suggestions! Thanks!!!!!!

Donna

[Spooky#9]

I read a description a while back of George Harris' teaching drill, which I thought was innovative and potentially useful. He places a blank, white sheet on the wall at eye-level, and places the muzzle of the (empty) gun almost against the target exactly as it should be aligned. He then has students dry fire with the muzzle resting an inch or so from the target, paying attention to the consistent and correct alignment of the sights. Learning to focus on the front sight happens naturally when the sight is resting in the same plane as the target, and the target is blank, with nothing to lead the eye away from the front sight. He then has them back up, a step at a time, repeating the dry fire drill with sights aligned exactly the same way until they reach respectable distances. Sight picture and front sight focus are retained this way, the only thing that changes is that the target looks smaller with distance.

It seems to me that this would be a good teaching exercise, although I haven't tried it yet. It seems to address aiming point, sight picture, sight alignment, and trigger control simultaneously, while forming a conditioned response through repetition.

Anyone tried this? Is it useful?

[benos]

I read a description a while back of George Harris' teaching drill, which I thought was innovative and potentially useful. He places a blank, white sheet on the wall at eye-level, and places the muzzle of the (empty) gun almost against the target exactly as it should be aligned. He then has students dry fire with the muzzle resting an inch or so from the target, paying attention to the consistent and correct alignment of the sights. Learning to focus on the front sight happens naturally when the sight is resting in the same plane as the target, and the target is blank, with nothing to lead the eye away from the front sight. He then has them back up, a step at a time, repeating the dry fire drill with sights aligned exactly the same way until they reach respectable distances. Sight picture and front sight focus are retained this way, the only thing that changes is that the target looks smaller with distance.

It seems to me that this would be a good teaching exercise, although I haven't tried it yet. It seems to address aiming point, sight picture, sight alignment, and trigger control simultaneously, while forming a conditioned response through repetition.

Anyone tried this? Is it useful?

I haven't tried it - but I wouldn't hesitate to. It sounds nothing but good.

be

[bpowe]

I've read of a similar drill using a sharp lead pencil inserted in the barrel of the unloaded! pistol. The firing pin hitting the eraser ejects the pencil with enough force to mark (maybe penetrate slightly) the paper target. Several repetitions produces a nice "shot group" and practice tightens the group markedly.

Bill

Edited May 31, 2007 by bpowe

[mpeltier]

The wooden gun with extra large sights is close to the visual aid I made to teach my son who was having trouble with sight picture. I made a big front and rear sight out of plywood (4"x4"), no gun, and a block of wood with a basket ball on top. lined up on a big table with the basketball on block on one end and the front sight and rear sight allighned on the other with the classic bullseye 6:00 hold on the basketball. had him neal at the end of the table, look thru the sights, and he turned around and smiled at me. That 9 yr old can now clean a plate rack darn fast.

[dirtypool40]

I think it was Sam Conway up at FLETC who a good visiual aid if you can find an old fashioned "overhead projector" for slides.

He had this arrangement of wooden blocks, making a sight picture. He'd lay this stuff on there so the "front sight" was on the glass and the "rear" elevated an inch or so off.

The effect? The "front" was black and crisp and the "rear" was slightly out of focus and grey.

I saw light bulbs go on all over the classroom.

[EricW]

I only recently realized why for so long I didn't understand basic sight picture:

Improperly designed sighting systems.

It's no wonder everybody has trouble when virtually every manufacturer has a sight system with something on the rear sight (dots, box, whatever) for someone to look at. The three dot fiber optic sights are an utter mystery to me, particularly so on long guns.

Then you have the front sights that are utterly featureless so you never are quite sure if you're really focused on them or not.

Then there's the sights where the front sight completely fills the rear notch, leaving no light bars at all.

And let's not forget the sights that are regulated so the bullet hits underneath the front "dot."

No wonder everyone's confused.

Edited June 1, 2007 by EricW

[dirtypool40]

This computer SUX!!!

I posted response to EW's and.... nothing.

Anyway, something about how a lot of features can be traced to 70's IPSC (ala square trigger guards) but how the abysmal sights we see on most guns can be traced to either some non-shooter's idea for the better mousetrap or bullseye; ala hold like this, at this measured distance, on this exact target, to get hits over here.

I mentioned the thick azz fronts to a factory rep and they said "Yeah, we know, shooters don't like them, but if we put anything thinner in there we get calls from <low end users> saying the guns won't shoot decent groups. Sort of our own version of "No shooter left behind" I suppose.

[EricW]

I mentioned the thick azz fronts to a factory rep and they said "Yeah, we know, shooters don't like them, but if we put anything thinner in there we get calls from <low end users> saying the guns won't shoot decent groups. Sort of our own version of "No shooter left behind" I suppose.

We need to put an addendum to the USPSA brochure that goes into gun boxes with "How to Aim and Fire a Pistol." I envision a simple diagram with a razor sharp front inside the notch of a slightly fuzzed rear sight with the top edge of the front blade right on the "neck" line of a metric target, and nice bullet strikes right in the A-zone.

Then we can have a diagram with a line rendering of Brian showing the proper isosceles stance. We can simultaneously rid the world of the Weaver stance and stupid sights at the same time.

Manufacturers will no longer have an excuse to put bullshit sights on their guns and will come with Heinies or Warrens or...gasp!...Bomars straight from the factory.

Edited June 1, 2007 by EricW

[Wayne Dobbs]

The DEA FTU had a video years ago called "Sight Alignment" that was seven minutes long and that used Jerry Barnhart's technique of videoing the gun's sights during shot delivery. The front sight focus was shown (properly and improperly) and several of the most common shooter errors were shown and the results. It was a real eye opener for lots of those basic police academy students.

For a quick on the line helper, I used a quick verbal reminder: "Equal height, equal light" (meaning equal height of the sight top surfaces and equal light around the front sight as viewed through the rear).

[Flexmoney]

"Equal height, equal light"

I like that. Consider it stolen.

[chp5]

See attached. I got the off this site a while back.

[shadetree]

Give them a pencil and paper and make them draw 'what they see' when they're sighting on the target.

Lots of interesting things show up then.

That's a good one.

If they shoot at Bullseye-type targets, turn the targets around backwards so they're shooting at a white piece of paper with no target on it. Most people will a shooter tighter, more centered group at the backside of the target then they will if they're shooting at the bullseye.

And keep telling them, while they're shooting - even wispering in their ear - "Look right at the front sight."

be

I actually took a basic hand gun class years ago where the live fire portion of the class consisted of shooting 22's at a blank piece of paper. I was amazed at how small the groups people who had never fired a gun before produced. I still do this on ocasion.

Edited June 19, 2007 by shadetree