Tactical Optic Division, Scope Quality Question?

[Brendan M]

After way too many hours researching AR-15’s online I concluded to suck it up and pay up for a JP-15. I think my wallet is whimpering in the corner, refusing to come out right now. So the gun issue is solved.

My question is how good of a scope do I need? Is there a major equipment advantage derived from the scope you use? The price ranges seem to be from $150-$1,000+.

I live in AZ so I will be shooting western US 3-gun competitions I can reach by car. I like longer rifle courses in general. I’m 39, wear glasses and know my eyes aren’t what they use to be. What’s the verdict?

[BigDave]

Probably your best bet for the $$$ is either a Leupold VX-III 1.5-5x (~$400) or a Trijicon Accupoint TR-21 1.1-4x (~$525). Put either on a good set of rings or a LaRue SPR mount (~$200) and go to work.

Others will chime in and say Meopta or a handful of others. LOTS of matches have been won with both of the scopes mentioned above, esp the VX-III.

[D.Hayden]

Try a few out.. decide first (if possible) about a 'normal' scope (with cross hairs), or one of the types with 'dots' (ACOG, Accu-Point).

And decide between variable and fixed.

Normal scopes are the cheapest, you can find good ones from the cheap Simmons to very expensive $$$ scopes.

I'm lokoing for: Clear optics, good eye relief, good field of view.

[uscbigdawg]

Biggies for me:

Trijicon ACOG TA11 or TA01

Trijicon Accupoint - 1.1-4x

Meopta w/ K-Dot

Leupold 1.5-5x with their circle reticle (whatever it's called)

Good glass costs money. While there's nothing wrong with the Simmons or other shotgun scopes (I used to use a Sightron 2.5-7x and that thing was bad ass!) I've come to appreciate quality glass as I've got older.

Rich

[Scout454]

The circle reticle in the Leupold Mk4 1.5-5 is called the SPR (Special Purpose Reticle). It's available with an illuminated reticle in a 30mm tube for about $200 additional. In addition to cross hairs and the circle, it has stadia marks for ranging.

[ranger]

There is a Weaver 1x3 in the BE Classifieds - I would snap it up and use that until you figure out exactly what you want. You can then sell the Weaver 1x3 for most of what you have in it!

[smokshwn]

+1 to ranger's suggestion.

A buddy has one and it is very good glass for the $$$. Also you may find that it works well for you.

[Joe D]

Has anyone used the Bushnell ACOG copy?

Edited April 9, 2007 by Joe D

[Patrick Sweeney]

I'm of two minds when it comes to optics. On the one hand, as a photographer I know, as we all do, that "glass is king." Screw a Leica lens into any camera body it fits, and you get Leica optics and quality.

However, you can get a lot of practice for the price difference between expensive optics and "good enough" optics.

If you know exactly what you want or need, buy it. Otherwise, buy something cheap but reliable, and shoot the snot out of it. Once you know what you want or need, they buy that.

Let's look at it this way; do you fear the newbie who has $1,500 in glass on his $1,500 rifle, or do you fear the not-quite-so newbie who has $150 in glass on his $750 rifle, and spent the difference in practice ammo and match entry fees?

[Middle Man]

Has anyone used the Bushnell ACOG copy?

All it is is a 1x32 red dot in an ACOG look alike housing...not much of a "copy" other than styling.

[Blockhead]

I don't know about the "fear" thing, but there are plenty of folks out there that have been doing this game long enough that they'll beat most any beginner regardless of his past training, equipment or background. I'm not trying to discourage you in any way. It's just that IMHO the gear on it's own is only part of the picture.

What works for one guy may not work as well for the next. The trick is to find what works for you. Ranger's suggestion is a great place to start. You might luck out and find the right optic/mount/rifle combo right off the bat. On the other hand you probably won't.

It also helps a bunch to get out and shoot local matches, watch other shooters and ask lots of questions. It never hurts to ask a fellow shooter if you could shoulder his rifle to check out his setup. If he says no, no harm done. Most of the folks I shoot with are happy to help you out and might even offer to let you put a few rounds downrange with it.

As for the $$$$ spent on gear vs. practice, everybody has their own comfort zone for cost. However, with most .223 ammo running $325/case or more (depending on what you like to use) it's getting pretty tough to find a "less expensive" way to acheive the competency it sounds like you're looking for.

Good luck!

Edited April 9, 2007 by Blockhead

[benny hill]

I had rather have a $800 scope on a $500 ar-15 than a $1500 AR with a $100 scope.

[Patrick Sweeney]

I agree, Benny, but which $800 scope is best? What works for you, might not work for me, or Brendan.

If he spends all his money on glass, how can he practice? The guy said his wallet is hiding from him after the JP beating, how's he going to get a primo scope?

[Bear1142]

Brendan,

I would highly recommend you check out the Weaver 1-3x20 classic variable. You should be able to pick one up for about $170. It's a very underrated scope. It has an excellent field of view, clear glass, good cross-hairs, true one power on the low end, and it is relatively compact. I used one for several years and was quite successful with it. In fact, I still have it on my back-up rifle. Don't overlook this scope, it will serve you well.

Erik

[kurtm]

I mistrust almost all scopes below the $500.00 mark. Most won't hold zero for any length of time, that is why I shoot Iron sights. When I bother to shoot an optic it is Trijicon, Leopold Mark 4 series, Night force or US Optics, but I don't bother to often. I have a Meopta and I haven't played with it enough to see if it holds zero well but so far it is promising. KurtM

[mike.45]

I mistrust almost all scopes below the $500.00 mark. Most won't hold zero for any length of time, that is why I shoot Iron sights. When I bother to shoot an optic it is Trijicon, Leopold Mark 4 series, Night force or US Optics, but I don't bother to often. I have a Meopta and I haven't played with it enough to see if it holds zero well but so far it is promising. KurtM

............... those Wyoming nights must just fly by..............

[Joe D]

Ordered a cheap ($65) Bushnell 1x4 circle plex reticle scope today. Bushnell told me it was a true 1x. We shall see. Figured that was the cheapest way to see if I liked a scope rather than a holo/dot scope. Seems like the FOV is 78+ feet.

I did order an EOTech 512 AA. Grafs has them on BO right now, but for $317 I guess it is worth the wait.

I can always put the scope on one of my other toys if I don't like it on the AR.

Now before some of you "Optic Snobs" laugh at Bushnell's cheap scopes let me say I have some high dollar scopes on bolt guns that are not any brighter or clearer than a 3x9 Bushnell Banner I have on a Savage .17 HRM. I have the same scope on a hard kicking spring air rifle that has lasted for 5+ years.

[Brendan M]

Thanks for all the suggestion on what scope, but you really haven’t answered my question.

What I was trying to ask was how big of a difference does it make if I have the perfect scope (call it scope 100%) or have the less then perfect scope (call it scope 75%)? Can you gain a big edge or give your self a big handicap by your choice of scope?

For example, from my experience equipment dependability and shooter skill are the number 1 and 2 inputs affecting competitiveness.

A GM with a tricked out open gun that won’t feed correctly can’t use his skill.

I shot behind Rob Leatham one time and think he might be able to out shoot most of us with any gun that cycles correctly and basically shoots straight. His single stack times often beat all limited gun times shooting steel at a local match. He get 8 shots before reloading we get 20+, he kicks our asses. Shooter skill.

Hopefully this clarifies my question some.

Thanks

Brendan

P.S. Don’t worry about the wallet. When I want a new toy (excuse my, highly engineered competitive tool) enough I can always put in some overtime.

[Merlin Orr]

Well alrighty then...

FOV is Very important. More the better. IMO a good FOV - say 100'+ at 100 yards is about min. Less makes it hard to find your targets when transistioning. When you get down to 75' or less it takes longer to find your next target. % wise - I can't say... Glass quality REALLY comes into play in poor light or finding targets of low contrast. At dusk it can mean finding a target or just squinting and spraying hopers....

[kurtm]

Yes you can have a huge handicap by chosing the 75% scope if it won't hold zero. I have seen two of the Simons turkey scopes lose zero durring a match to the tune of 8 minutes and more. I have seen 3 Bushnell banners that were mounted on Team Challenge 10-22s break the erector tube so that the cross hairs spun in a nice circle while shooting.

Any clairity is enough as long as you can discern the target and have the reticle in focus for your eye, in my opinion "clairity" is way over rated compaired to repeatability of adjustment, and not wandering zero!

Now before you think of me as an "optic snob" I have seen a TA-11 loose zero due to the adjustment spring loosing it,s temper and it took of to the tune of15 minutes. A friend had a Leopold start wondering on him and it had to be sent back. The main difference is the higher end scopes seem to have less issues than the lower end scopes and the waranty is usually better.

As to wether it makes you "better", the jury is out quite a few matches have been won with the Turkey scope, and Mr. Turkey...ah.. Scope Benny Hill has made the switch to Meopta, as both examples of the Turkey scope loosing zero in the middle of a big match also come from Benny. KurtM

[George]

The Trijicon ACOG is what I like.

The difference in quality over lesser optics when you spend lotsa' time behind one is huuuge!

[Joe D]

So far the Bushnell Banner is the only scope that has stayed together on my springer air rifle. It has eaten a couple of other scopes - Leuopld and Simmons. A springer air rifle is far harder on a scope than any CF rifle.

Time will tell if the one I ordered lasts. It was about as cheap as I could go to see if I prefered a scope over a holo/red dot.

[Sestock]

So far the Bushnell Banner is the only scope that has stayed together on my springer air rifle. It has eaten a couple of other scopes - Leuopld and Simmons. A springer air rifle is far harder on a scope than any CF rifle.

Time will tell if the one I ordered lasts. It was about as cheap as I could go to see if I prefered a scope over a holo/red dot.

Thread drift.... You need an Air Rifle Scope for an air Rifle. Normal scopes will not last long on an air rifle. ......

Sorry for thr drift

[benny hill]

FOV,FOV is very important along with holding zero & a true 1x so you can hose it down up close with both eyes open like you were useing a C-more dot.

[Mick]

So you're saying the Meopta has the FOV, holds it's zero and has a true 1x to hose up close???