Allow Detachable Magazine Shotguns Into Limited/tactical?

[Religious Shooter]

What do you think?

[jbullgpd]

What do you think?

I bet I know who is the one who voted for it,

[Wakal]

Voters seem resistant to upgrading from their 1890's technology

I shoot Cowboy Action matches to play with old guns. I shoot USPSA to play with new guns

Alex

[SinistralRifleman]

I'm with Wakal on this one. Why should shotgun be the only gun we don't reload with magazines?

In courses of fire less than 12-14 rounds, I haven't found in to be any real advantage over tube fed guns. The more movement on the course of fire, the less it matters.

With the number of these guns I have been selling to competition shooters, I expect to either see more open shooters in the near future, or a bigger push for them to be legal in more divisions.

[TRUBL]

I would say open only (sorry) I know the logic ditates it is purely tactical. HOWEVER.....for the same reason we should not allow 9mm major in (USPSA) limited......you are going to make equipment obsolete. Ok.....allow it in open and trooper divisions, keep it out of the other divisions

We are already seein the 40s&w going bye bye in IMGA.....as we have no power factor. You may say.....nooooo I am still using my 40, but trust me, people are seeing that they can get more ammo cap using 9mm, no need to make major, (and much cheaper ammo to say the least) and are using it or thinking about using it. That is slowly happening though.

By going with a magazine fed shotgun, you will see mag tube fed shotguns become obsolete for the game. AND...this is a game, make the rules favor one style and its not fun anymore for everyone.

Right now....the shotgun part is a loading game....total time divided shots loaded, not fired. The fast loaders are going to win (assuming that you can hit what you are aiming at). When it takes less than 4 seconds shot to shot to load 10 rounds versus 10 seconds, you have a major advantage that can not be overcome by practice, it will only be overcome by new equipment. OK....my times stated my not be typical and your result may vary, however it IS very lobsided betweeen the two styles.

Thats a lot of shotguns that will be needing being bought for only one company that really produces a viable mag fed shotgun.

[mike.45]

I am with Tim here, OK a few of the top guys can and will out load and out shoot a detchable mag shotgun, but 95% of people out there can't, and so their only way to be able to keep up with the arms race is to fork out on a new gun and mags etc.

[Gregory_k]

Where is the match?

[kurtm]

Wow I,m in the vast minority. Let's see a division dominated by CHEAP reliable shotguns, boy would that suck!! I can buy a Saiga for a quarter of a Benelli, it runs and I can get magazines?? boy that just plain sucks!! There ought to be a rule!!.....to let them shoot in ANY division KURTM

[ccur]

+1 for Tim...

You CAN use these mag fed shotgunsTODAY!! IN OPEN AND TROOPER!! They are not only allowed, but I think would give the tec loaders a run for their money!! This discussion somehow seems funny as I recall a discussion about LIMITING how many rounds you can have in a rifle in Tactical and Limited? I really welcome new technology, and am happy to play the game anyway the rules say to play, but how many open classes do we need? Tactical Open, Limited Open, Open Open, etc

As you know, I am blonde, and female, so maybe I don't know anything really (that comment is not open for discussion )

Cheryl

Edited March 19, 2007 by ccur

[George]

I'm with progress, but I did take a moderate road and say Tactical only, not Limited/Standard in USPSA.

I think the shotgun need a shot of progress in it's arm and new style shellholders for your belt aren't that ;-)

[RiggerJJ]

Nope. It just adds to the arms race crap. It is clearly defined in the IMGA rules as an Open Shotgun. If we keep this stuff up we will hafta re-arm ourselves every year to be competitive. More often than not when I ask an ipsc shooter to try 3gun his answer is 'it costs to much'. Do we want this to be even worse? And, 'the arms race' is the main reason all the hell happened to ipsc shooting a few years back in the US, and idpa was born out of it.

Of course everyone wants an edge, (even if its only percieved). The troops in the real stuff are learning from us and doing things like multiple optics on rifles, etc. But just because they are doing it doesn't mean we don't need boundaries in 3gun.

(and I can see Russell being in favor of it, there are more Tactical shooters to sell em to! )

And they ain't cheap! Check out the price of a 'Race Ready' model! More than a Benelli!

jj

[SinistralRifleman]

I think this is kind of funny, because I generally view competition shooters as the type of people willing to spend any amount of money on something that's an advantage. I've seen people over the years try all different varieties of tube fed shotguns switching from model to model because one "cycles faster" or "loads easier", etc. Some even go so far as to spend hundreds of dollars having the operating system of the gun worked over.

For $700 you have a gun with a decent enough bead sight and 5 10 round magazines, and one 5 rounder...still cheaper than a Benelli. You don't need to dump $400 into a pistol grip conversion to have an effective, reliable gun.

A detach mag fed shotgun makes shooting open worthwhile, regardless of all the other equipment the shooter uses. Thus I think some of the people who have these will just shoot open with their limited pistols, and throw a bipod on their tac-scope rifle if anything.

Life's not fair so gear in Trooper is completely unlimited, except by your physical ability to carry it. You can all talk about what should be allowed in Trooper when you actually shoot it some time. ;-)

Edited March 19, 2007 by SinistralRifleman

[Wakal]

It is a very good thing that all the people crying "there should be a rule" were not around when a sneaky guy bolted the first red dot sight on top of a pistol, or we would all be shooting IDPA and I would have taken up knitting instead

Personally, I like Limited as Limited. I like Open as Open. And I think Tactical isn't different enough from Open OR Limited; perhaps a single optic on the rifle, a Limited pistol with 170mm mags allowed, and...any non-optic'ed shotgun without speed loaders (and no, magazines are not speed loaders)

That would shake things up a bit

Alex

[Dan Sierpina]

Wouldn't the simple thing be to do away with equipment classes all together? Like we did long ago? Then, you just run what you brung. The guy with the most talent still won. Although, if he had deep pockets, he won by more

[jhgtyre]

I bet those who are the most vociferous in their objections have not used one of these guns. If the magazines went straight in like an AR mag the Saiga would allow an average shooter to destroy those using tube fed guns and even tec-loaders. I can barely get the stupid mag in on a closed bolt with that hook and hope fastening system on my Saiga. I do think I will get better with practice but since when have I ever taken the time to do that?

As to .40s in three gun I don't see a problem at SMM3Gun because the pistol round counts are so low. You could be very competitive shooting a .40 or even a .45 on most stages. I do have and am planning to use a 9mm but only because I already had one lying around. I certainly wouldn't go out and buy one just for 3 gun. I can't speak to how it would play out at other matches.

I WAS shooting my Saiga at the end of the month but I don't have the gear to play in open, yet, so its back to the Benelli for me.

-ld

[TRUBL]

I should add.....I kinda like the alure of trooper class as being a true unlimited, open class where anything goes. I believe that is the class that in the future, will be the devolepmental class for really strange and innovative stuff. And I say that, not being tongue in cheek......it is the unlimited classes typically that are the 'research and development' for the rest of the sport.....as well as 'real' life experiences (IE: JPoint on top of ACOG....Army uses that now).

[SinistralRifleman]

TRUBL, for the same reason I wish some of the big dogs would try it just because I'd love to see what they came up with to get the most advantage.

[mwx40x40]

I don't understand. Leave it alone. If you have one these , there is a place for it in OPEN class. Same for 100 rd mags for rifles they should be fine in OPEN class . If we keep broadening the classes it might as well be a run what ya brung match.

[benny hill]

I sent my thumb to reloading college for 4 years & got a degree in loading a benelli & would hate to see it wasted.

[TRUBL]

Dont worry....the big dogs are looking at it...they'll try it.....just in open or trooper class............sorry

[Benelli Chick]

I shoot tactical, so maybe I'm just whining, (Though I agree, I haven't seen one smoothly operated regularly yet.) but detachable magazines are definitely an open class item. (And trooper, if you've got it.) How are they different than a speed loader tube? 10 rounds in 4 seconds. Sounds like Open to me.

Okay, maybe Kurt can load 10 rounds in 4 seconds. But, I think we should put him in open, too! Just kidding!

If it's technology not just fast hands, it's open!

There's my two cents!

Denise

[BBunin]

I haven't had any opportunities to shoot 3 gun or multi gun, yet.

However, it seems to me that if the Sagia IS a better mousetrap, then why not use it? It's not like we require rifles to use only an integral magazine, right?

[Mike P]

It seems to me that if a magazine isn't a speedloader then neither is a speedloader. Both are used to recharge the weapon with ammunition quickly. Both hold and dispense ammunition, just differently. Different technological approach to the same problem and all that. Maybe both should be allowed in tactical class, eh? After all, there isn't any rule against recharging a rifle mag using spring loaded stripper clips is there?

Mike

[Religious Shooter]

I haven't had any opportunities to shoot 3 gun or multi gun, yet.

However, it seems to me that if the Sagia IS a better mousetrap, then why not use it? It's not like we require rifles to use only an integral magazine, right?

Compensators... more than one optic... larger capacity magazines... ALL better mousetraps. Does that mean we should have them in Limited or Tactical? What's going to then differentiate Open, Limited and Tactical?

I bet those who are the most vociferous in their objections have not used one of these guns. If the magazines went straight in like an AR mag the Saiga would allow an average shooter to destroy those using tube fed guns and even tec-loaders. I can barely get the stupid mag in on a closed bolt with that hook and hope fastening system on my Saiga. I do think I will get better with practice but since when have I ever taken the time to do that?

You are assuming that the Saiga is the ONLY affordable DM shotgun that is out or is going to be out. It's not. Somebody can come out with a cheap DM shotgun with magazines that can be inserted straight-in tommorow. It's not "Should we let the Saiga in?". It "Should we let shotguns with DM in?" If we let the Saiga in all the other DM shotguns can play.

[Mick]

"Personally, I like Limited as Limited. I like Open as Open. And I think Tactical isn't different enough from Open OR Limited; perhaps a single optic on the rifle, a Limited pistol with 170mm mags allowed, and...any non-optic'ed shotgun without speed loaders (and no, magazines are not speed loaders)".....Alex.

That would be a fun idea to try...

Let's do this!