A Modest Proposal - Standardize 'major'

[EricBudd]

One of the items that has always struck me as unusual is that the definition of 'Major' depends on the division. In Revolver a .357 @ 165 makes major. In Open a .355 @ 165 makes major and in Limited and Limited 10 a .40 @ makes major. Shouldn't they all be the same?

It doesn't matter much to me if we make Limited .355 @ 165 or Open .40 @ 165 but the definition should be the same. I know that this would cause some gnashing of teeth, but the new 2008 rule book is the time to make the change. It would simplify the rules and treat all the divisions equally. Also, if we allow different bullet sizes to make major, couldn't we have different power factors for major as well?

Edited November 20, 2006 by EricBudd

[zhunter]

Interesting thoughts!!!

+1

I bet the gunsmith's would LOVE this!!

[Jim Norman]

Eric,

It makes a >MAJOR< difference to the game.

If we allow .355 as major in Limited and L-10, we add 3-4 rounds to the maximum capacity of a 140mm magazine. This will change the sport and immediately obsolete all .40 cal guns. much as the advent of the doulbe stack .40 pretty much eliminated the .45 as a competative gun in Limited.

Yesterday at Topton, one of our shooters was shooting his Glock in Limited, with extended mags, he loads 24+1 vs my ability to load at best 21+1. He didn't need to reload, I did. On a tight COF, this will make a difference. On a COF with many arrays with good spacing, it makes less difference.

I strongly am against allowing for 9mm Major in Limited and L-10

Jim

[Chuck Anderson]

Uh no. We went through this years ago when the .40 limit was put into place excluding the .356TSW cartridge. Part of the reason for the cap was to slow the arms race in Limited. If it wasn't put there we'd probably all be shooting heavy bullet .30 carbine variants with 30 rounds in a 140mm mag. Changing it would require a whole new arms race costing competitors hundreds of thousands of dollars. There is no good reason to change it, other than they'd all be the same, and one really expensive reason not to change.

Additionally, since the rest of world also uses those caliber dimensions, I think that might put us at an advantage when half the US shows up at the next World Shoot with .40 cal open guns, or have to rechamber all the .38 super Limited Guns.

[Chuck Anderson]

Mouse AD.

Edited November 20, 2006 by Lawman

[EricBudd]

Eric,

It makes a >MAJOR< difference to the game.

If we allow .355 as major in Limited and L-10, we add 3-4 rounds to the maximum capacity of a 140mm magazine. This will change the sport and immediately obsolete all .40 cal guns. much as the advent of the doulbe stack .40 pretty much eliminated the .45 as a competative gun in Limited.

Yesterday at Topton, one of our shooters was shooting his Glock in Limited, with extended mags, he loads 24+1 vs my ability to load at best 21+1. He didn't need to reload, I did. On a tight COF, this will make a difference. On a COF with many arrays with good spacing, it makes less difference.

I strongly am against allowing for 9mm Major in Limited and L-10

Jim

OK, How about we make Open Major .40 @ 165?

[EricBudd]

Changing it would require a whole new arms race costing competitors hundreds of thousands of dollars. There is no good reason to change it, other than they'd all be the same, and one really expensive reason not to change.

But, but, but guns aren't investments? And no one said you have to change. You can keep shooting your 40 Major. A few rounds capacity difference shouldn't be a problem if you practice your reloads.

[JFlowers]

I don't think across the board 9mm Major will make as big a difference as is assumed.

I don't see changing L-10 to 9mm Major having any real effect since 10 rounds is well 10 rounds. Then I could choose to shoot anything from a .45 set slow and heavy to a 9mm set fast and light. Very different recoil performance, but the guns are balanced since both are running 10 rounds.

The same with Revolver since 6 rounds is 6 rounds.

I see the largest impact being felt in Limited. Now you go from a 20+1 or 21+1 .40 to a 22+1 or 24+1 9mm. The top of the food change will chain over, as will those who feel that they just can not compete without the latest, greatest widget. But many can and will continue on with their .40s and be highly competitive. Unless you are having to do a standing reload, the magazine management is just another part of the game. I see a lot of guys running Open with no big stick or Limited with a P14-45 and doing so competitively in the A-C classes currently.

Yes, it means that some will choose to spend money to buy new guns, but its a choice and not something they are forced to do. But one of the ideas behind the formation of the shooting sports was to test and push the technology and it we have pushed it to the point where 9mm Major is ready, then we should not deny it.

Edited November 20, 2006 by JFlowers

[BigDave]

Really, though, who'd want to shoot an un-comped 38 Super or 9mm at 165+ PF? I'd think that would be so obnoxious that it wouldn't be worth it.

[tightloop]

Eric,

It makes a >MAJOR< difference to the game.

If we allow .355 as major in Limited and L-10, we add 3-4 rounds to the maximum capacity of a 140mm magazine. This will change the sport and immediately obsolete all .40 cal guns. much as the advent of the doulbe stack .40 pretty much eliminated the .45 as a competative gun in Limited.

Yesterday at Topton, one of our shooters was shooting his Glock in Limited, with extended mags, he loads 24+1 vs my ability to load at best 21+1. He didn't need to reload, I did. On a tight COF, this will make a difference. On a COF with many arrays with good spacing, it makes less difference.

I strongly am against allowing for 9mm Major in Limited and L-10

Jim

Should have thought about that before they made 9mm Major at all..it should have stayed 10/40 or larger to be major then no problem....but if 9 makes major in Open it should be allowed to be major in all divisions....

Really, though, who'd want to shoot an un-comped 38 Super or 9mm at 165+ PF? I'd think that would be so obnoxious that it wouldn't be worth it.

Anyone who wants to most rounds in the mag...that's who'd shoot them...cause it is a big advantage like it or not...it is all about who has the most rounds down..the whining you hear now is from the folks who will have to change their idea of Limited guns to remain at the top of the food chain...and it isn;'t just the A-D shooters, it is the M and GM shooters too...they did not get to be at the top by ignoring a competitive advantage no matter how slight it might seem to some.

[JFD]

I wouldn't want to shoot an uncomped major 9 or .38 Super, but could deal with it if that was the rules.

The question is WHY?

[BSeevers]

We have a local M that wins clubs matches with a 24 rd Glock minor 9mm in Limited. Its an huge advantage. On a 20 rd course you have extra rds and if you are calling your shot you make it up in .25 and folks nobody can reload in .25 Its not just stand and shoots where 4 rds counts. I would switch to 9mm and probably investigate 160 gr bullets. I like 165gr in my .40 now.

I would be really pizzed off to have to buy a slide and barrel. IMO this would be the worst thing to the sport you could do.

Short of making us wear scuba fins to shoot in.

PS Open is Open. Its the Formula One/Top Fuel of USPSA and anything goes. We limit Open to 9mm because if we didn't people would be shooting .17 caliber Open guns with 35 rds.

You cannot apply logic that if Limited is .40 then Open is .40 because of this.

Edited November 20, 2006 by BSeevers

[EricBudd]

I would be really pizzed off to have to buy a slide and barrel. IMO this would be the worst thing to the sport you could do.

Short of making us wear scuba fins to shoot in.

OK, I'll say this before this thread goes too far. I made my 'Modest Proposal' (see Jonathan Swift) as a bit of satire. I guess I need to work on my sense of humor.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that a seeming innocuous change can bring about a major change to the sport and to have a few posts from Limited shooters about the need for capacity in that division. This is the same reason I think we need to leave Limited 10 alone. It gives shooters with capacity challenged guns a place to race without being at a disadvantage. All the limited shooters who read my proposal and thought 'that would suck...I'd need new gear.' now know exactly how L10 shooters feel when it is suggested they just shoot limited.

Eric

PS Open is Open. Its the Formula One/Top Fuel of USPSA and anything goes. We limit Open to 9mm because if we didn't people would be shooting .17 caliber Open guns with 35 rds.

You cannot apply logic that if Limited is .40 then Open is .40 because of this.

If Open is Open, anything goes, right. Why not let .17 caliber guns shoot if they may make major? Of course, that might be hard on steel.

[Bear23]

Why not just leave everything as it is?

It's fun no???

[EricBudd]

Why not just leave everything as it is?

It's fun no???

Cool. Exactly what I want! Leave the divisions alone. A little clarification for Production (if necessary) and lets shoot.

[tightloop]

We have a local M that wins clubs matches with a 24 rd Glock minor 9mm in Limited. Its an huge advantage. On a 20 rd course you have extra rds and if you are calling your shot you make it up in .25 and folks nobody can reload in .25 Its not just stand and shoots where 4 rds counts. I would switch to 9mm and probably investigate 160 gr bullets. I like 165gr in my .40 now.

I would be really pizzed off to have to buy a slide and barrel. IMO this would be the worst thing to the sport you could do.

Short of making us wear scuba fins to shoot in.

PS Open is Open. Its the Formula One/Top Fuel of USPSA and anything goes. We limit Open to 9mm because if we didn't people would be shooting .17 caliber Open guns with 35 rds.

You cannot apply logic that if Limited is .40 then Open is .40 because of this.

Sure you can...it is a game, you can change it anyway you want...but Major should be the same in all divisions..period....9mm major was a silly idea to start with..

[bgary]

Two separate issues: equipment rules, and safety rules.

According to the *equipment* rules, it takes 40 to make major in Limited/L-10, but calibers down to 9mm/Super can make major in Open. That's a rule designed to define the *equipment* used in a division.

There *was* a Board resolution, years ago, which said that even though Super was allowed to make Major in Open, 9x91 was not because of the belief that it could not be loaded to major velocities at safe pressures in that casing. With different powders, lower power factor, and other things, the Board "vacated" that resolution a couple of years ago. That does not "create an inconsistency", it actually removes one: you can make major in Open with a .356 bullet whether the cartridge case-head says 9x19 or Super.

All of that is digression, though. The core issue is the equipment rules. As others have noted, if 9mm were allowed to make major in Lim/L-10, it would create a whole new *equipment* race, in which everyone "has to" go get a new 9mm gun built to stay competitive as the capacity changes. We don't want that - we especially don't want to "obsolete" equipment that is currently legal and viable.

So, please, separate these two topics in your mind. The reason that it takes .40 to make major in Limited/L-10 is because that's what the equipment rules say. Not because it is unsafe, not because L/L-10 are "behind the times", nor any other reason. Just because that is the equipment rules for the division. Open is a different division, and has its own (separate) rules.

Notably, that's the same answer for

-- why can't we be scored Major in Production?

-- why can .357 make major in Revolver?

-- etc.

Major *is* the same for all divisions - 165, in the USPSA rulebook. It is also true, however, that some divisions don't *allow* you to score major with certain equipment. That's "differences in equipment rules", not a flaw in the way "Major" is defined.

Bruce

[BBunin]

Eric,

It makes a >MAJOR< difference to the game.

If we allow .355 as major in Limited and L-10, we add 3-4 rounds to the maximum capacity of a 140mm magazine. This will change the sport and immediately obsolete all .40 cal guns. much as the advent of the doulbe stack .40 pretty much eliminated the .45 as a competative gun in Limited.

Yesterday at Topton, one of our shooters was shooting his Glock in Limited, with extended mags, he loads 24+1 vs my ability to load at best 21+1. He didn't need to reload, I did. On a tight COF, this will make a difference. On a COF with many arrays with good spacing, it makes less difference.

I strongly am against allowing for 9mm Major in Limited and L-10

Jim

That's about the strongest endorsement I've seen yet on why we need to keep L10.

Try shooting a gun with 12 or 14 rounds in pure limited and see what a REAL round count disparity is.

[JD45]

We have a local M that wins clubs matches with a 24 rd Glock minor 9mm in Limited. Its an huge advantage.

A minor 9 with 24 rounds sounds really appealing for some reason. Take a Glock 17 or 34 with one extended basepad and you're ready for limited, sort of.

[Matt Cheely]

A minor 9 with 24 rounds sounds really appealing for some reason. Take a Glock 17 or 34 with one extended basepad and you're ready for limited, sort of.

Not when I can start with 22 rounds of .40 in my STI.

The only change I'd be in favor of would be raising major in PSSD and Limited/L10 to 170.

[GeorgeInNePa]

I think 9mm Major would be just fine in Limited and Limited 10.

Lim 10 already has a limit to the number of rounds.

Make Limited the same concept, cap it at 20rds in the mag and let them have their 9mm major in Limited.

[Loves2Shoot]

Ok, how many of you guys have shot limited major in a stock/Limited gun?

FWIW, I serious doubt unless there was some major change in bullets and powder the change would be worth it. In fact I would love for my competition to shoot major 9 in a limited gun.

[Gary Stevens]

Just to point out something, two posters have said that letting 9mm major in L-10 would create a new arms race. Can anyone explain to me how 10 rounds of one ammo is different than 10 rounds of another?

Not advocating anything, just trying to understand.

Gary

[BritinUSA]

It would not in L10 for the reason that you mention. But it would if it applied to Limited. You could easily get 24 rounds in a140mm magazine and that could have an impact.

It's a bad idea in my opinion. Keep the major at .40... just my 2 cents

[Loves2Shoot]

You could easily get 24 rounds in a140mm magazine and that could have an impact.

Unless there is some super secret powder out there they major 9mm I've shot is HARSH, no way I'd give up the shooting performance of major .40 for 4 rounds of 9mm major in Limited. I know how to reload.