Gary Stevens Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 The minutes of votes regarding the new rulebook are posted on the uspsa webpage. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Thanks for the info - and your hard work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 somehow I missed these from 8/16-- “For a handgun to be approved for USPSA Limited or USPSA Limited 10 divisions, it must first meet the requirements as outlined in appendix D7 or D8 of the current USPSA handgun rules. Secondly, the NROI manufacturer’s declaration form must be submitted to NROI, stating that a minimum of 500 have been manufactured and available to the general public. Once NROI has reviewed the handgun, and has received the signed manufacturer’s declaration, the handgun will be approved for USPSA Limited/Limited 10 division and posted to the approved list as well as a statement made on the USPSA web site.” “For a handgun to be approved on the Production gun list, it must first meet the requirements as outlined in appendix D9 of the current USPSA handgun rules. Secondly, the NROI manufacturer’s declaration form must be submitted to NROI, stating that a minimum of 2000 have been manufactured and available to the general public. Once NROI has reviewed the handgun, and has received the signed manufacturer’s declaration, the handgun will be approved for USPSA Production division and posted to the approved list as well as a statement made on the USPSA web site.” How does this work with guns that are either so old the manufacturer isn't around, or doesn't feel like providing a signed letter to NROI? "So sorry, you have to shoot Open with that Nambu"??? Can third-parties submit documentation for evaluation. Since I don't see a Limited or L10 list anywhere, I guess we're all shooting Open now and didn't even know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Are those quotes from a 2008 USPSA rulebook? If so, where are you finding them? Thanks. Bn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Those are from the 8/16 minutes and supposedly effective now.. I found them looking for these new ones for the 2008 book.. here's the list of the ones I think are interesting (there are others) Passed L10 reinstate When did it go away? Passed USPSA Box Now = IDPA Box? Passed Production minimum Trigger Pull 3 lbs DA shot. This will light up the internets. I like it. Passed Senior 55 - Super Senior 65 Keep TGO out a little longer? Passed Hits must penetrate Ick. Edge cases are going to be trouble. Failed Finger outside TG Huh? Is it now ok or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 (edited) For all the passonate discussions of L10. Here are the people for keeping it and those against it? Does your Area Director or President vote the way you believe? I personally find this a little disturbing. Glad it passed. PS I believe it is incorrect it should read appendix D8 not D3 Title: L10 reinstate Date of Motion: 11/14/06 05:51 PM Closed: 11/15/06 12:00 AM Submitted by: Area8 Seconded by: Area3 Status: Posted Result: Passed Motion: A8 moves to reinstate Appendix D3 Limited-10 division. Rollcall requested. Area1: Yes, Rollcall Requested Area2: No, Rollcall Requested Area3: Yes, Rollcall Requested Area4: No Area5: Yes, Rollcall Requested Area6: No, Rollcall Requested Area7: Yes, Rollcall Requested Area8: Yes, Rollcall Requested President: No, Rollcall Requested # 2 thing I find disturbing. Production will have a 3# or heavier trigger. Heres the vote Area1: Yes, Rollcall Requested Area2: Yes, Rollcall Requested Area3: Yes, Rollcall Requested Area4: Yes Area5: No, Rollcall Requested Area6: No, Rollcall Requested Area7: No, Rollcall Requested Area8: No, Rollcall Requested President: Yes, Rollcall Requested PS I have nothing personal against any Area Director or President. In fact I support and appreciate them 100%. I think most club level shooters feel L10 is a great option and thats why I support it and let my Area Director know. If yours doesn't support your views then email them. Heck email them if they do to. They need lovin too. Edited November 19, 2006 by BSeevers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted November 19, 2006 Author Share Posted November 19, 2006 (edited) All of these motions were regarding the new rulebook, which is being worked on, and will only apply in 2008. Until then, nothing changes. As to the finger in the trigger guard, the new rulebook will have a clear exception for lowering the hammer on a gun without a decocker during LAMR. The motion that was defeated would have allowed reloading with the finger in the trigger guard at all times. Since our safety rules are layered and redundant, I would not vote to allow this. It removed a layer of safety, and I couldn't go with it. L-10 had been removed from the draft of the 2008 rules, by someone's direction. The motion that was voted on was to put L-10 back in the 2008 rulebook. Gary Edited November 19, 2006 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 All of these motions were regarding the new rulebook, which is being worked on, and will only apply in 2008. Until then, nothing changes.As to the finger in the trigger guard, the new rulebook will have a clear exception for lowering the hammer on a gun without a decocker during LAMR. The motion that was defeated would have allowed reloading with the finger in the trigger guard at all times. Since our safety rules are layered and redundant, I would not vote to allow this. It removed a layer of safety, and I couldn't go with it. Gary Thanks.. does the "2008" apply to the gun production numbers votes from August? I agree about the extra safety layer, though my AD thought it wasn't necessary... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted November 19, 2006 Author Share Posted November 19, 2006 (edited) I think the answer to the numbers question is yes for the 2008 book, but that motion took effect when it was voted on. This allowed the waiver of the one year requirement if a sufficient number of guns have been produced and in the hands of the general public. However, I have seen so many drafts, and changes, I'm not totally sure of anything at the moment. Gary Edited November 19, 2006 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Gary, production trigger pull. What will be the accepted method for measuring trigger pull on a glock? Asking for consistency's sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted November 19, 2006 Author Share Posted November 19, 2006 I don't know. That is one of the reasons I voted against it. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Gary, Thanks for the helpfull information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Yeah that should be interesting to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Gary, these things are still a "draft"...correct??? There is still time for members to offer feedback and changes to be made? (That Production trigger pull weight thing is going to be a major cluster f*#k.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted November 19, 2006 Author Share Posted November 19, 2006 (edited) Yes the 2008 rulebook is still in draft. However, these motions and votes are directed at the latest draft. These motions and votes will modify the previous draft and take their place. In other words, what you see here is real. Where you are having problems is not knowing the complete context that they are being used. You don't need much context though on some things such as trigger pulls. Yes, as of now, pending a re-votewhich I don't anticipate, there will be a minimum 3 lb trigger pull in Production in 2008. Gary Edited November 19, 2006 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 (edited) (That Production trigger pull weight thing is going to be a major cluster f*#k.) [sarcastic mode on] Gee, Flex, you think so? [sarcastic mode off]. Who motioned for that POS rule, who seconded? At least my AD had the good sense to vote against it. So let's see, Area 1, 2, 3,4 and the President voted for it. Do any of them shoot Production? Edited November 19, 2006 by vluc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted November 19, 2006 Author Share Posted November 19, 2006 Title: Production minimum Trigger Pull Date of Motion: 11/15/06 04:25 PM Closed: 11/15/06 12:00 AM Submitted by: President Seconded by: Area4 Status: Posted Result: Passed Motion: Minimum trigger pull - Yes, 3 pounds in hammer fully down/decocked condition Area1: Yes, Rollcall Requested Area2: Yes, Rollcall Requested Area3: Yes, Rollcall Requested Area4: Yes Area5: No, Rollcall Requested Area6: No, Rollcall Requested Area7: No, Rollcall Requested Area8: No, Rollcall Requested President: Yes, Rollcall Requested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Great, another fix for a problem that doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 (edited) "Title: L10 reinstate Date of Motion: 11/14/06 05:51 PM Closed: 11/15/06 12:00 AM Submitted by: Area8 Seconded by: Area3 Status: Posted Result: Passed Motion: A8 moves to reinstate Appendix D3 Limited-10 division. Rollcall requested. Area1: Yes, Rollcall Requested Area2: No, Rollcall Requested Area3: Yes, Rollcall Requested Area4: No Area5: Yes, Rollcall Requested Area6: No, Rollcall Requested Area7: Yes, Rollcall Requested Area8: Yes, Rollcall Requested President: No, Rollcall Requested" Razor thin margin... I predict a second "bite at the apple." "Title: Production minimum Trigger Pull Date of Motion: 11/15/06 04:25 PM Closed: 11/15/06 12:00 AM Submitted by: President Seconded by: Area4 Status: Posted Result: Passed Motion: Minimum trigger pull - Yes, 3 pounds in hammer fully down/decocked condition Area1: Yes, Rollcall Requested Area2: Yes, Rollcall Requested Area3: Yes, Rollcall Requested Area4: Yes Area5: No, Rollcall Requested Area6: No, Rollcall Requested Area7: No, Rollcall Requested Area8: No, Rollcall Requested President: Yes, Rollcall Requested " This will turn into a God Awful mess..... "Great, another fix for a problem that doesn't exist." "L-10 had been removed from the draft of the 2008 rules, by someone's direction. " Another "State Secret." Edited November 19, 2006 by Chuck D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 I assume that the full text of the 2008 rules will be made available to the membership for review and comment prior to the BOD adopting them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerettaRacer Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Yea, on Production 3 lb pull. It'a a Production DOUBLE action division, NOT a single action division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mminmm Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Yes the 2008 rulebook is still in draft. However, these motions and votes are directed at the latest draft. These motions and votes will modify the previous draft and take their place. In other words, what you see here is real. Where you are having problems is not knowing the complete context that they are being used. So all that's being shown are changes made to a document we haven't seen yet? Boy, is that screwed up or what? That's like reading the amendments to the constitution without seeing the constitution! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
et45 Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Gary,If the Production gun fails the 3lb trigger pull will the shooter be bumped to L10?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Let's see--in the past few years in Production: We have a list of approved guns---just like IPSC We are going to have a "Box" (Oct BOD minutes, item 13)----just like IPSC We are going to have a minimum trigger pull-------just like IPSC So why not just adopt the IPSC rules? We are going there anyway, just slowly. Kind of like removing a band-aid--do it quick and it doesn't hurt as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted November 19, 2006 Author Share Posted November 19, 2006 I would guess it is like now with failing an equipment rule, fail the trigger pull and go to open. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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