Flexmoney Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Measuring trigger pull is pretty simple and should be more consistent than chrono is today, and IPSC somehow manages to muddle through. Well heck...let's do it for all divisions then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Measuring trigger pull is pretty simple and should be more consistent than chrono is today, and IPSC somehow manages to muddle through. Well heck...let's do it for all divisions then... Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Now... everyone ask themselves.... "Why am I not shooting OPEN...???" :D :lol: .... Its threads like these that make me very happy to have the simple rules set of the bunch... I think minimum trigger pull is a decent thing, especially if we have good clarifications/tools to make things happen properly (BTW - at the local level, you'd likely pay just as much attention as this as you do to, say, magazine length...). Production box - makes perfect sense to me. Same w/ SSD box. The more we make the equipment rules empirical instead of subjective, the easier we make it on everyone involved (from gun makers to match directors) - except, perhaps, those that have to spend a little money to get back in line w/ the rules... (and lets face it, the tools of the game are NOT investments... they're expenses... get over the "investment" angle, cause you're fooling yourself...). The nice things - the updated Production rules sound like they've possibly avoided the big expensive change - outlawing aftermarket sights that required slide machining to install... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Measuring trigger pull is pretty simple and should be more consistent than chrono is today, and IPSC somehow manages to muddle through. Well heck...let's do it for all divisions then... Why? Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 I will agree that Open is looking better every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chendersby Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Area 2 Director's positions on 08 rules/divisions Limited 10 I have been asked by some members as to why I did not vote to reinstate Limited 10. First, some background as to why it needed reinstating in the first place. At the meeting in Dallas we decided to inform IPSC we were going to have our own rulebook, thus ending the constant need for waivers from them for our rule differences. The rules committee put together a USPSA rulebook. One of the main discussions has been about our divisions. Many of us on the board feel we have too many and at the small local club level there are not enough shooters to have 5 divisions. We are a competition organization but with all the divisions the competition is diluted to the point there is no competition. 5 divisions each with 6 classes and 6 categories. There are barely enough shooters in each at most Area matches much less a local club match with 20-30 shooters. And now we add Single Stack to the mix to make 6 divisions. Lots of communication went on concerning divisions between us (yes we do communicate outside of board meetings). My impression was we need to keep the divisions to 5. Two race (open/limited) and 2 “stock or production” divisions and revolver. Yes revolver guys I want to keep you around. So the problem in this scenario is between L10 and Single Stack. That is how the agenda item “L10 or SS” came to be. Limited 10 came to be for 2 reasons. First is was meant to be a place for single stack 1911 pistols to be competitive and second we had a “high capacity mag ban”. Just as limited was intended to be a “single stack” division, limited 10 also failed to provide place for the single stack to be truly competitive. Please do not try to argue the point that Single stacks are competitive in L10. Just look at match results and what guns dominate and Robby does not count as he could probably kick most of our asses with a flintlock. Provisional Single Stack is the third try to get it right. Why is it important for SS guns to be truly competitive? The shear number of 1911s out there and the fact it is only second to Glock in sales today. Marketing. We want those people shooting with us. We also want the factories to support our sport. I believe it is hugely important to get it right and make it so the guns that started this sport still have a place in the sport. It would be a simple decision except for a couple things. First, I have 2 states in my area that have mag capacity issues and second what about all the current members who shoot capacity challenged limited guns? Before the Atlanta meeting I decided if it comes down to limited10 or single stack, I would have to go with L10. But that does not solve the problem other than you can shoot a SS in L10 but you can’t shoot the capacity challenged L10 guns in Single Stack. So I proposed a new division that would replace both L10 and SS. This was the item on the agenda at Atlanta called “Stock Division”. It was the single stack rules for modifications only the guns were not limited to single stacks but we would exclude the STI/SV guns. The consensus was that it would also be dominated by wide body frames so a motion was never made on “Stock”. In Atlanta we did not make many decisions on the new rules but did form a basis for where we thought we needed to go with production and single stack. When we left Atlanta I was under the impression the majority board had unofficially decided that single stack would replace limited 10. I was reluctantly in that majority. John Amidon took that and made some changes to the draft of the new rules we had. That is where L10 was eliminated. Michael the called for an online meeting to try and finalize the rules. He asked for motions. One was to reinstate L10. I made a motion that if L10 is eliminated then we need to make L10 a category of limited. It died without a second and L10 was reinstated so it did not matter. I am not really sure what happened after the Atlanta meeting but I was surprised. I am still very not set on a position but I am leaning toward L10 in is current form should be a category of Limited. That comes from the position we have to many divisions right now. Production As you can see we voted for a trigger pull minimum and a box for both production and Single Stack. This is part of the approval process for new guns wanting production approval. We have tried to come up with MEASUREABLE rules and criteria as to what a production gun is. Please wait to see the rules in their entirety before bombarding us with questions. Revolver You guys are safe as it seems the division is growing. Hopefully that trend will continue. I hope this give you all some insight as to how we came to the recent decisions the board has made. And please keep in mind I love this sport and am truly trying to what is best for it. Remember I did not get this job because I was the most qualified candidate. It was because I was the only one who wanted it. Your feedback is welcome, please be nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Jones Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 I think the answer to the numbers question is yes for the 2008 book, but that motion took effect when it was voted on. This allowed the waiver of the one year requirement if a sufficient number of guns have been produced and in the hands of the general public. However, I have seen so many drafts, and changes, I'm not totally sure of anything at the moment.Gary Gary, what about Shred's question on: "How does this work with guns that are either so old the manufacturer isn't around, or doesn't feel like providing a signed letter to NROI? "So sorry, you have to shoot Open with that Nambu"??? Can third-parties submit documentation for evaluation." It does appear that the potential exists for many guns to not be on the approved list just because the original manufacturer can not/will not submit the appropriate documentation to have it approved. This could have a big impact on many shooters, particularly 1911 shooters that choose to shoot Limited/L10 instead of PSSD. Or would a gun that already meets all the requirements for PSSD be automatically be approved for Limited/L10? Related to this question, why no approved gun list for single stack? If there is an approved list for Production/Limited/L10, will we see an approved list for single stack once (if) it moves beyond provisional status? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted November 20, 2006 Author Share Posted November 20, 2006 We have almost the same requirements regarding numbers right now for Limited guns. I think there has to be a bit of common sense, yes I actually said that, in this process. In the legal system they call it "judicial notice", perhaps we will use a similar term for guns that are obviously above the required numbers. If I were to show up at a match with one of my Lugers, I believe we should take "judicial notice" that there have been a whole bunch of Lugers made and not start talking about a process to certify them. This is designed for companies that bring out new guns or new models of guns. Perhaps it is a good time to discuss this as part of the 2008 rule book. I'll see what I can do in that respect. Thanks, Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Is anyone sure if the CZ SP01 will fit in the proposed box? The SP01 is a fairly big pistol. I assume (although I know it's usually a bad idea) that the proposed box rule testing procedure would require a magazine to be inserted in the gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Jones Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Thanks Gary, that is helpful. One final question on this for clarity. If I understand correctly, the approved Production list is about gun criteria and production numbers while the approved Limited/L10 list only addresses production numbers? As example, the H&K USP Expert is not approved for USPSA production due (I presume) to gun criteria but would be legal for Limited/L10 because production has exceeded the required number? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 If the BOD has yet to decide what the "intent" of Production is, how can one then vote on what changes or alterations to make? What becomes the basis for the decisions? Shouldn't one decide that first, then go for modifications (oops, bad word for production)? As the President seems to be the one pushing this direction, perhaps he can come on here and address the points raised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 From Dictionary.com Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source pro-duc-tion Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pruh-duhk-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. the act of producing; creation; manufacture. 2. something that is produced; a product. 3. Economics. the creation of value; the producing of articles having exchange value. 4. the total amount produced: Production is up this month. 5. a work of literature or art. 6. the act of presenting for display; presentation; exhibition: the production of evidence in support of the case. 7. Informal. an unnecessarily or exaggeratedly complicated situation or activity: That child makes a production out of going to bed. 8. the organization and presentation of a dramatic entertainment. 9. the entertainment itself: an expensive production. –adjective 10. regularly manufactured; not custom-made, specially produced, or experimental: a production model. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Origin: 1400–50; late ME < L prōductiōn- (s. of prōductiō) a lengthening. See product, -ion] —Synonyms 6. introduction, appearance, display, materialization. #10 Would seem like a logical place to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moverfive Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 This is just another example of where we have a major change where the membership wasn't able to offer informed opinions to their representatives prior to any vote. What problems are being caused by the existence of L-10? Why is requiring a 3# trigger necessary? And thus, what problems does a 2.5# trigger cause? My whole point here - are these the best solutions? I truly believe that our BOD is trying to do what is best for the organization and its membership; however, if they aren't actively soliciting informed opinions/recommendations from it membership on major changes (changes that will cost the membership real money), then I don't think we have the best processes in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Please do not try to argue the point that Single stacks are competitive in L10. Just look at match results and what guns dominate and Robby does not count as he could probably kick most of our asses with a flintlock. I won't argue it because it flat out isn't true. Ask anyone who is competitively shooting L10 with a single stack if they feel that they're at a disadvantage to a widebody and the answer will be no....previous L10 discussion here have proved this time and again. The key here is "competitive". It implies PRACTICING or putting forth effort. If people shooting single stacks in L10 don't want to practice and work at getting their reloads down...then they've got nothing to complain about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 It is not that SS is not competitve in L-10 but if you ask what should you shoot in L-10 the answer will overwhelmingly be a wide body. So the perception is that SS is not competitve in L-10 otherwise why do so many people recommend to use a wide body. Remember perception is reality Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chendersby Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 I would again like to point out that the rule changes we are dealing with here are for the PROPOSED 2008 rule book. It will be released to the membership for your input and comments by the first of the year. Nothing is final about these rules at this point. I for one welcome input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 From Dictionary.com10. regularly manufactured; not custom-made, specially produced, or experimental: a production model. #10 Would seem like a logical place to start. I agree, as my G34 is a regularly manufactured item, in fact, every piece I have in it is a production piece...nothing custom made, nothing specially produced, nothing experimental, yet would not be kosher under the new rules. I would again like to point out that the rule changes we are dealing with here are for the PROPOSED 2008 rule book. It will be released to the membership for your input and comments by the first of the year. Nothing is final about these rules at this point. I for one welcome input. How long will input be taken from the membership before a final vote is taken on the rulebook? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 This is just another example of where we have a major change where the membership wasn't able to offer informed opinions to their representatives prior to any vote. I agree in that no vast survey was given and should have been, but given the amount of people that showed up at the members meeting, and the Area Directors asking opinions of shooters they saw at matches and the like. I think a consensus was derrived. As for production rules... can anyone here tell me a production gun with a trigger under 3 pounds? they don't really exist because of the liablity of producing them. Do i think there is a competitive advantage to a 1.5 pound trigger.... to top level shooters, no not really, But to the expense of our new shooter buying a gun from the factory then spending 100-200 on an action job because they have yet to practice enough to get their shooting platform strong enough to make it a non issue. that is a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 vluc, what makes yours not kosher? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chendersby Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 It is not that SS is not competitve in L-10 but if you ask what should you shoot in L-10 the answer will overwhelmingly be a wide body. So the perception is that SS is not competitve in L-10 otherwise why do so many people recommend to use a wide body.Remember perception is reality Alan Thank you Alan. There is a perception that the SS is at a disadvantage. When a new shooter shows up with a SS and sees he is competing with a full race limited gun the first thing he thinks is do I have to spend the $ for one to be competitive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 vluc, what makes yours not kosher? I have a dastardly less than 3 pound trigger...much of it due to shooting the gun.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chendersby Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 How long will input be taken from the membership before a final vote is taken on the rulebook? I believe it will be posted for comment for a couple months. Then we go back to work to finalize them based on member input. I expect there will be some changes. Final approval will happen mid year sometime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 vluc, a better trigger from use? Sounds like you have done a ton of practicing. Maybe you need a 5lb disconnector. Just kidding. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Based upon the admittedly unscientific poll running on this forum, Limited-10 is desired as a division by the members with a great plurality and majority. Why do we need two "Stock" Divisions and two "Race" divisions and Revolver? Limited-10 is a place you can easily play with your single stack. Very little if any disadvantage over a wide body in reality. It is said that small clubs don't attract enough people to have more than 5 divsions. So? We run 50-70 shooters thorough our monthly matches. we run 25 plus during our two practice matches. We get maybe one or two that shoot revolver. We get a lot of Production and Liimited-10. We get a fair number of Open and Limited. If they show up, they get to shoot. This is one very good argument in favor of continuing to publish the combined results! If there is a club that has 15 shooters, what difference if there is a 6th division, why is 5 sacred? If they get 3 people in each of the current divisions, they likely don't pay class or division wins anyway. You need 5 Division and 3 in class. We NEED L-10 in many large population areas. People want to be able to shoot race guns without jumping through hoops to do so. THis doesn't mean we should eliminate Limited, or start Open-10. (Maybe we should actually add two more divisions, Open -10 and Open Revolver??) Much of this is about marketing. Look at the populations in NJ, NY, MA, HI and CA. Why take away the one race divison we can shoot without hassle? We can shoot L-10 at home and Limited when away. It is the only race division we have where grandfathered shooters and non-grandfarthered shooters compete on a even playing field. As an example, If I were to move to CA, I cannot bring hi-caps in to shoot in Open, I have to shoot a state approved gun with 10- round mags against people that have lived there for years and have grandfathered hi-caps. Bigh chance I can compete, BUT L-10, 10 is 10, i can compete on a level field and I might even win. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Are these rules changes designed to address "perceptions"? If so, there can be a host of changes to address the litany of perceived competitive advantages, many based on a person's lack of desire to practice and do the things that need to be done to shoot competitively. As I've commented before, equipment doesn't beat me, the other shooter (and/or my mistakes) does. Does a cr speed mag holder versus my comp-tac body hugger type beat me? No, but there might be a perceived advantage to some other production shooter - should we then insure that all mag holders in that division are similar? Does the DOH beat the Kytac belt holster - no, but someone thinks so, and away it may go. vluc,a better trigger from use? Sounds like you have done a ton of practicing. Maybe you need a 5lb disconnector. Just kidding. Alan LOL! I said much of it, not all of it! I've been toying with that idea! Don't say it too loud, they may want to only have a 5lb connector and a NY trigger setup as standard equipment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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