EricW Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 (edited) Here's the plan: Add a new classification in the form of an *un*classification. Check a box in your USPSA profile and bango! you're now shooting in "X" class - where there are no classes - and no certificates of accomplishment for tying together 6 "Hero or Zero" classifiers to amaze your friends and coworkers. From here on out, your "rep" is entirely based upon whether or not everyone else at the match thinks you're a threat when you pull into the parking lot. We'd still shoot classifiers. You could still look up your %'s on line. If I had my druthers, we'd lose the HHF system and simply plot everyone's classifier scores on a bell curve and your current running average would be indicated by an arrow on the graph. Gone would be the entirely upwardly mobile system of classifications in "X" class. Also gone would be tossing "fliers" out of the data. Zero a classifier by making 15 procedural errors (a crime which I freely admit to committing) and watch your running average drop substantially. Who's ready to burn their draft card and race heads-up? [Note: I'm not suggesting "U" because that's the classification for newcomers. The "X" would be a voluntary, informed choice of the USPSA member.] Edited October 1, 2006 by EricW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f250sd Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 Sounds kinda like a paper GM class. Still shooting classifiers, you can check your percentage, but your classification dosen't change. And if your all GM's you'd shoot heads up any ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 I like to say that I am shooting for the fun of it but the truth is that I really try to beat people in my own skill ( class) level. Some of my fellow shooters are taking a Manny Bragg class this weekend and if there were any in my classification taking the course then my chances of beating them just went out the window. My local club has a trophy for each division so isn't that what you are really talking about when you say to drop classes. Or do you mean across divisions because they give a high overall trophy also. I hate bell curves because they don't represent accurate information. I once finished a 6 week class 1.5% points behind 1st place and was 25th of 49. I would love to play golf once with Tiger Woods to actually see how the game should be played. But there is no way in h3ll that I would abuse myself by going out there every week and thinking I had a chance to finish within a 100 strokes of his score. My draft card, now that I would burn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 Sounds like how most of the fun "outlaw" 3-gun matches already work. I would like to just run heads-up on the 1/3 gun matches too Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 Thats the way 3-gun has always run! I've been an "X" since 1993 let,s giter done!! KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Run n Gun Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 Sounds like how most of the fun "outlaw" 3-gun matches already work.I would like to just run heads-up on the 1/3 gun matches too Thats the way 3-gun has always run! I've been an "X" since 1993 let,s giter done!! KURTM Can I hear and AMEN!!? One of the greatest appeals of 3-gun (NON-USPSA 3-gun) is the "heads up" aspect to it. No grandbagging or sandbagging, minimal whining, "run what ya brung" (with in reason) flat out competition. Don't like being 23rd out of a field of 25? Then you'd better get to practicin' son. It's true freedom, freedom from bureaucracy, even if it is damaging to your "self esteem". You gotta love it, I know I do... If there was more 3-gun (and there IS more and more of it around here) I would quit going to USPSA pistol matches all together. So yes Eric, I like your plan. I usually only look at the "combined" results anyway. And it's not like I'm some kind of "hot rocks" shooter either, old, fat with bad knees. Strictly "C" class stuff... Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 Heads up is fine. But, if there's big prize tables with high entry fees, I think you'll start losing shooters. Unless/Until the match builds up a good reputation (like SSM3G). Otherwise the lower placing D-C-B shooters are just funding the prize pool for the A-G-GM. Just my .02.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted October 1, 2006 Author Share Posted October 1, 2006 (edited) I still like my idea of 1/2 the prizes go to order of finish & 1/2 goes out via random draw. Or...cash down to NN places and the prize table goes out via random draw. Personally, I would love to see a mass exodus from the classification system into X-Class. Edited October 1, 2006 by EricW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo radley Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 Personally, I would love to see a mass exodus from the classification system into X-Class. Every match I shoot is scored "heads-up." There's the top shooter in the division at 100%, then the rest of us at some percentage of him/her. Major match or local. As far as awards, prizes, etc...Life is class system. There's "Varsity" football, and "Junior Varsity." There's "Major, Captain, Colonel..." Etc., etc., etc. Where it goes horribly wrong, is if a meritocracy doesn't exist -- the bright kid can't take AP Biology, because, see, he's a *freshman.* You can't win high-overall, because you're an "X" class. Or worse, "Gee, you're female/Black/Asian/****? so regardless of performance, you're in a special class." Fortunately USPSA isn't like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipscbob Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 Frankly, I dont see how this could possibly work without losing a large part of the membership. Right now, there is way too much whining over how wide bodies put single stacks at a disadvantage and other similiar "excuses" for not winning. This would only make the perception of an equipment race that much more severe. Sorry, but I dont think you can ever go back....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 I still like my idea of 1/2 the prizes go to order of finish & 1/2 goes out via random draw. Or...cash down to NN places and the prize table goes out via random draw. Personally, I would love to see a mass exodus from the classification system into X-Class. That's not a bad way to go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 I personally like the classification system. I know it is fraught with misbehavior but for new shooters, they need the chance to beat others like themselves, either new or just not motivated. Many of you have been shooting so long that perhaps you have forgotten what it was like when you first started. Now I'm not a really new guy but I can still remember. If it had been totally heads up when I first started, I don't think I would have kept at it. Now, perhaps just an X class for those that want to be in it would be fine but for now, I'll stay where I am, B class but slowly moving up. It is good for your ego to win something once in a while & to that end, classes are the only way for most of us to achieve that. If X class was completelyvoluntary, that would be fine with me, go for it. MLM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 Perhaps I'm in the minority but for me, the classification system seems to work just fine. That being said, I would not have any problem or complaints if they did away with it and went to a heads up contest. I'd still shoot. Steel Challenge is this way and I really like it. I would like to ask the historians among us : has there always been a class system or did it start heads up and move to one for some reason ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnhurd Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 They passed a rule to only count a Max of 2 NS hits to save a new shooters self esteem and you wanna shoot heads up........SHAME on you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted October 2, 2006 Author Share Posted October 2, 2006 (edited) They passed a rule to only count a Max of 2 NS hits to save a new shooters self esteem and you wanna shoot heads up........SHAME on you Yeah...I'm a big meanie. I don't get the "everybody will quit" argument. All I'm proposing is a voluntary system where those who actively choose could opt out of the classification system. A "D" shooter could drop out into "X" division and go head to head with the GM's (this presupposes that top GM's would drop out of the classification system - which may or may not happen due to the prestige of the title). His/her choice. People that love the classes can remain in them and continue their valiant battles for 50th, 83rd, and 194th place. And I know why this wouldn't be overwhelmingly popular....because the division would actually reflect reality. You'd be able to look up your classifier scores and see how you actually are shooting versus the top dogs in the sport. And no one in X-Class would be rewarded for mediocrity. It's either bust ass or keep losing. I guess it all comes down to who you want to pace yourself against. I want to race against the hottest rocks at the match, every match, regardless of my classification. El Numero Uno is who I judge my performance by, not the schmuck in 97th place. Edited October 2, 2006 by EricW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 El Numero Uno is who I judge my performance by, not the schmuck in 97th place. I've managed to shoot three Nationals and a few other big matches in Production now. Sevigny has won most of them, and I've been able to gauge my performance against his scores for the last three years ----- all without dropping out of the classification system. I think your proposal is a solid solution searching for a problem to fix..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 Yeah, I see no gain here. What you have is an "I don't subscribe to how you are doing it so I don't wanna play". Those that like the classifier system...well, they like the classifier system. Those that are looking to the top of the score sheet are usually the ones that move there soon enough. They are already shooting heads-up in their mind. Nice idea...workable...but, screw it and go shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 I don't see the point other than this being some BS "look at me" garbage. I can already look at my classification percentage and see how I stack up against the best in the sport. How is an X classification going to change that? Want to shoot against the best? They are called GMs and they already shoot heads up against everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 I can already look at my classification percentage and see how I stack up against the best in the sport. You must be in a different classification system than the one in which I participate. The classification system I participate in simply shows my best scores standing in Box A blasting at brown and it doesn't have much to do with the reality of a big match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 (edited) I agree with Flex, I pay attention to my percentage overall versus the guy that gets 100%. I have seen percentage gains at the last two nationals and Area 2's. I have taken this to mean that I am improving. I believe it's the only way you can truly track progress against the top guys. Rob Leatham shoots as well this year as last year and a three percent gain against him speaks volumes about your training. Though three percent may seem paltry, gains at higher level get smaller and smaller as you progress. However, on the other hand, I like the classification system because it has shaped my training to work towards more workable short-term goals. As I moved from B-A-M-GM, my skills progressed, as my classifiers became more consistently better. Classifiers represent gun handling skills, all of which apply to shooting well at major matches. It is however, harder to predict that you will shoot three percent better at the next nationals because of all the factors involved. Typically major matches show the appropriate distribution of the classes in the overall results, sometimes with a few exceptions. I think if we simply take away awards for class finish, it would be a much simpler way of making the larger matches completely "heads up." My $.02 Edited October 3, 2006 by Interceptor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 I think your proposal is a solid solution searching for a problem to fix..... Those inclined to ignore classifications, are doing it now. Just go shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted October 2, 2006 Author Share Posted October 2, 2006 I'm the first to admit that my "solution" is more of a political statement than a solution. For all the emotional internet gyrations over grandbagging and sandbagging, I would have thought that walking away from the classification system would have been a lot more popular notion. Now back to tilting the windmill of why 1-Gun matches aren't more popular... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unleashed Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 Nice idea...workable...but, screw it and go shoot. I love it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precision40 Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 Sounds like a good idea on paper, but I fear it would only be another division to be gamed and one more chance for a select few GM's to win a Title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusher Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 your "rep" is entirely based upon whether or not everyone else at the match thinks you're a threat when you pull into the parking lot But it's that way now. Some days you eat the bear, and some days the bear eats you. FWIW I voted "x" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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