Ad During Reload

[Shooter Grrl]

Riddle me this, jokers...

Why is an AD during a reload that hits the target any less safe than an AD that hits dirt?

[BritinUSA]

Because it indicates a lack of control of the gun. The fact that it hits a target, or the even the berm is purely a coincidence. An accidental discharge should more rightly be called a 'Negligent discharge'.

The shooter was negligent because they had their finger on the trigger during the reload. This is a no-no

[Matt Cheely]

The AD that hits the targets is obviously less safe because you might have hurt the their feelings after getting yet another hole poked in them.

[Bigbadaboom]

Riddle me this, jokers...

Why is an AD during a reload that hits the target any less safe than an AD that hits dirt?

It isn't.

Any A.D./N.D. is unsafe

[Shooter Grrl]

Because it indicates a lack of control of the gun. The fact that it hits a target, or the even the berm is purely a coincidence. An accidental discharge should more rightly be called a 'Negligent discharge'.

The shooter was negligent because they had their finger on the trigger during the reload. This is a no-no

All AD's, UD's, ND's, etc, indicate a lack of control of the gun. Why does one instance send you home as a safety infraction and the other one let's you keep shooting the match?

[rtr]

Why does one instance send you home as a safety infraction and the other one let's you keep shooting the match?

In what case can you AD and not get DQed?

[shred]

An AD on reload is proof (barring broken parts) you had your finger in the triggerguard during the reload, which is a DQ offense in and of itself without any shots fired.

[Shooter Grrl]

In what case can you AD and not get DQed?

Are you joking? If you UD any other time than loading, reloading or clearing a malf and it stays in the range - you are not DQ'ed.

If you UD during the draw and it hits dirt outside of 3m away from you, you are not DQ'ed.

An AD on reload is proof (barring broken parts) you had your finger in the triggerguard during the reload, which is a DQ offense in and of itself without any shots fired.

And so the shooter says "I took the shot on purpose and the proof is that it's a bee-you-tee-full A hit!"

And again, my question is, why is hitting a target less safe than hitting dirt?

[shred]

An AD on reload is proof (barring broken parts) you had your finger in the triggerguard during the reload, which is a DQ offense in and of itself without any shots fired.

And so the shooter says "I took the shot on purpose and the proof is that it's a bee-you-tee-full A hit!"

"Doesn't matter. You had your finger in the triggerguard during a reload. Sorry."

Complying with half of 8.4.1 is not the same as complying with all of it.

I suppose they could claim they weren't actually inserting or un-inserting ammunition at the time, if, say, they dropped the mag, aimed, shot, then put a new mag in, but otherwise, it's a no-no. Hitting a target during a reload AD is going to be pure luck in 99% of cases.

[LPatterson]

/Devil's Advocate mode on/

If the shot hit the target the shooter was aimed at, how can you be sure it was accidental and not a really fast trigger pull after the reload. The test should be, did the shooter have a finger in the trigger guard at the time the magazine was entering the gun. Almost impossible to see as most shooters roll the gun slightly when inserting the magazine. If the gun discharged while it was still tilted then I would considered it to be accidental.

10.4.6 A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting at targets. If the gun is up and pointing at a target, how many steps can be taken before a shot has to be fired; 1 or 2 or a half dozen?

The answer I was given at a Nationals was, if it is indexed at the target the shooter is in the process of breaking the shot and should be allowed a reasonable distance to complete the shot.

//Devil's Advocate mode on//

[Vlad]

Why does one instance send you home as a safety infraction and the other one let's you keep shooting the match?

In what case can you AD and not get DQed?

Yes, a detonation during unloading (10.4.3.1) or an actual breakage of the gun (10.4.9).

An AD during reload should send you home NO MATTER IF IT HIT A TARGET, as per 10.4.3:

10.4.3 Ashot which occurs while preparing to or while actually loading,

reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired

during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.7.

No exception for the shot impacting a target.

Note however that if the shooter is a bit to quick on the trigger while drawing or transitioning and his round impacts the berm and his not moving at the time, that doesn't seem to be an AD or a DQ.

In what case can you AD and not get DQed?

Are you joking? If you UD any other time than loading, reloading or clearing a malf and it stays in the range - you are not DQ'ed.

If you UD during the draw and it hits dirt outside of 3m away from you, you are not DQ'ed.

Unless you are moving.

[Waltermitty]

In what case can you AD and not get DQed?

Are you joking? If you UD any other time than loading, reloading or clearing a malf and it stays in the range - you are not DQ'ed.

If you UD during the draw and it hits dirt outside of 3m away from you, you are not DQ'ed.

An AD on reload is proof (barring broken parts) you had your finger in the triggerguard during the reload, which is a DQ offense in and of itself without any shots fired.

And so the shooter says "I took the shot on purpose and the proof is that it's a bee-you-tee-full A hit!"

And again, my question is, why is hitting a target less safe than hitting dirt?

It's not particularly less safe, it just happens to be specifically prohibited by the rules. If you want to change the rule, that's another matter.

10.4 Match Disqualification – Accidental Discharge

10.4.3 Ashot which occurs while preparing to or while actually loading,

reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired

during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.7.

10.4.3.1 Exception – a detonation, which occurs while unloading a

handgun, is not considered a shot or discharge subject to a

match disqualification, however, Rule 5.1.6 may apply.

Other conditions also apply.

It's also not particularly unsafe to unholster your gun and load a magazine in it, but if you do it at any other time than after the LAMR command, you get DQ'd. It's not particularly unsafe to draw your gun and shoot a paper target, but if you do it before the "Start" signal you may be DQ'd as well depending on the circumstances.

It's like any other arbitrary rule, it may or may not be precisely calibrated to a "Safety Scale", but is in place probably to encourage good gun handling.

There are many other examples...

[rtr]

Are you joking? If you UD any other time than loading, reloading or clearing a malf and it stays in the range - you are not DQ'ed.

If you UD during the draw and it hits dirt outside of 3m away from you, you are not DQ'ed.

I just finished my RO class this weekend, so I'm a newb to ROing.

10.4 defines several cases in which an AD leads to a DQ. Including any AD during "movement". There doesn't appear to be a rule that makes an AD while drawing that strikes outside of 10ft from the shooter is a DQ, but what if that shot ricochets and travels over the backstop, would 10.4.1 make it DQable?

[tightloop]

how are you going to be certain that it went over the berm? Did you see it, I don't think so...

[outerlimits]

just had this happen at the golden bullet yesterday. shooter reloaded, gun went bang after the mag was seated, but only one hand was on the gun. dq'd the shooter for 10.5.3, who arb'd the call. arb committee ruled in favor of the shooter. haven't read the arb yet, but i believe the line of thinking was that the reload was complete once the mag was inserted, so 10.5.3 didn't apply.

didn't matter one way or another to me...

[AzShooter]

Are you joking? If you UD any other time than loading, reloading or clearing a malf and it stays in the range - you are not DQ'ed.

If you UD during the draw and it hits dirt outside of 3m away from you, you are not DQ'ed.

I just finished my RO class this weekend, so I'm a newb to ROing.

10.4 defines several cases in which an AD leads to a DQ. Including any AD during "movement". There doesn't appear to be a rule that makes an AD while drawing that strikes outside of 10ft from the shooter is a DQ, but what if that shot ricochets and travels over the backstop, would 10.4.1 make it DQable?

It first hit the ground. Therefore it's a dead issue.

[AikiDale]

Riddle me this, jokers...

Why is an AD during a reload that hits the target any less safe than an AD that hits dirt?

An AD during the reload that hits the target is just as unsafe as an AD that hits the dirt. Who said it wasn't?

[Shooter Grrl]

I just finished my RO class this weekend, so I'm a newb to ROing.

AWESOME! Congratulations - RO'ing is one of the bestest ways to give back to the clubs and our sport.

[ima45dv8]

just had this happen at the golden bullet yesterday. shooter reloaded, gun went bang after the mag was seated, but only one hand was on the gun. dq'd the shooter for 10.5.3, who arb'd the call. arb committee ruled in favor of the shooter. haven't read the arb yet, but i believe the line of thinking was that the reload was complete once the mag was inserted, so 10.5.3 didn't apply.

didn't matter one way or another to me...

I had a similar situation, and the same argument was made that even though he hadn't reacquired a firing grip, it was just a really fast return to the firing portion of the program. My call boiled down to the look on the shooter's face when the gun fired. He was startled and looked for an instant like he had just messed his pants. It was obvious to me he fired the gun before he meant to, and was out of control.

DQ.

I'd be disappointed if an arb committee overturned it, but that won't stop me from making the same call under the same circumstances. I'd rather have someone get a reshoot than let someone's temporary lack of control spiral into a catastrophic event.

[Precision40]

Riddle me this, jokers...

Why is an AD during a reload that hits the target any less safe than an AD that hits dirt?

Heres my take, and it's only my opinion so take it as such. If you AD, the bullet has to go somewhere. Sometimes, they go into the target, sometimes they go over the berm and sometimes they go straight up/straight down. Regardless of where bullet goes, it's unsafe because it was not an aimed shot. Period.

An AD is an AD and it what it all boils down to is the shooter accepting responsibility for what they've done. AD'ing then trying to arbitrate your way out of it really is sad. An AD into a target is just as unsafe as AD'ing over the berm. If I see the gun go off during the reload or at the same time the mag is inserted into the gun, it's a DQ.

It's the shooters right to challenge an AD and that's great that we have that option, but don't expect RO's to lower their standards when it comes to safety. Just my opinion.

[cking]

Most AD's that happen during reload, happen when the mag is slammed in, because the finger was resting on the trigger. So you could call it finger on trigger during a reload. Either way they are gone!

IF they say they didn't have there finger on the trigger, then gun needs to be pulled and have its sear safety tests performed.

I see a lot of open guns that I'm not sure that they would survive a hard fall with safety off. Especially if the grip safety is removed or pinned.

[bayoupirate]

I agree with the majority here.

If there are targets visible, the shooter has two hands on the gun, the gun is pointed downrange and an unaimed shot goes off. The shooter had just had an AD. And should receive a Match DQ for unsafe gun handling.

In Arb, the shooter may argue that targets were visible and he intended to take a running shot at the array before fully raising the weapon to engage the targets, and he might just maybe convince them that he intended to make that shot.

During a reload or clearing a malfunction if the gun goes bang, you Dqed. Unless you can prove some physical gun part breakage, your finger was inside the triggerguard and you are going home. This is common during clearing malfunctions because people don't practice clearing malfunctions. It's natural to squeeze with all fingers when gripping something. We've programed our brains and hands to grip without the index finger while shooting, but clearing a MF is not shooting to our brain and eventually, usually on about the 3 or 4th whack trying to get the round to feed completely, the shooter grasp the entire grip tightly with all fingers, the round chambers and the striker drops. BANG! DQ

At least that's how it happened to me.

[Vlad]

If there are targets visible, the shooter has two hands on the gun, the gun is pointed downrange and an unaimed shot goes off. The shooter had just had an AD. And should receive a Match DQ for unsafe gun handling.

Based on what rule?

[sfinney]

If I see the gun go off during the reload or at the same time the mag is inserted into the gun, it's a DQ.

Thats the tricky part, the identifying if the shot went off DURING the reload, or right after... whats the definition of the end of a reload has been hashed many times, but I think the latest I saw was once the mag is seated, no matter how many hands are on the gun. What if you were transitioning to Strong or Weak hand, or whatnot? And what constitutes an aimed shot on a point blank target? Does the gun have to be fully raised and sights used on a "hoser" target, or can you break a shot off as you're extending the gun, even before the 2nd hand comes back on the grip?

So for example, you slam in a mag in a safe manner, left hand is starting to come up to the grip, gun is starting to extend back towards a target, BANG shooter breaks a shot early (in a safe direction)..... some R.O.s will try to call that an AD during reloading becasue it all blurs together, when really it should technically be called an UD, and depending on whether the shot left the range or hit the ground inside 3m should determine whether its a safety violation DQ.

Usually, in my limited experience, its pretty obvious when the shooter has "surprised" himself, vs. just got on the gun to fast..... but sometimes it IS hard to tell. I'd say that unless you felt very strongly about what you actually saw, rather than guessed happened, give the shooter the benefit of the doubt.

Of course if they DID break the shot during the reload, DQ them asap.

Edited May 1, 2006 by sfinney

[bayoupirate]

If there are targets visible, the shooter has two hands on the gun, the gun is pointed downrange and an unaimed shot goes off. The shooter had just had an AD. And should receive a Match DQ for unsafe gun handling.

Based on what rule?

Vlad,

8.5.1 Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged. The firearm must be pointed in a safe direction. “Movement” is

defined as any of the actions below:

8.5.1.1 Taking more than one step in any direction

8.5.1.2 Changing shooting stance (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.).

10.4.6 A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting at targets.

10.5.10 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during move-ment

in accordance with Section 8.5.

In the situation I described the shooter was moving and was not holding the gun in a normal shooting position. If the gun fires that's an AD. because the shooter had to be moving with their finger in the trigger guard.