Ad During Reload

[Chuck Anderson]

I would tend to dispute that. We've got a couple shooters that apparently got some old school point shooting training. I've seen them point the gun in the direction of the targets from a lowered shooting position and shoot. Just because it's not a normal shooting position does not make it a DQ. If there are targets available that they could be shooting, and the gun is pointed at them, and a shot goes off??

8.5.1 Except when the competitor is actually aiming OR shooting at targets.

It's an OR, fortunately they've seen me shoot and know that I don't aim too much.

However, reload during AD. It's normally pretty easy to tell the ones that the shooter didn't intend for them to go off. Most guys don't point the gun at the target while reloading, they cant the gun or point it somewhere slightly different. I would say when the gun begins the transition to the target, the reload is done.

[TDean]

My kinda shooters stop themselves when they feel they've crossed into ND land. I dislike the types that continue even after an obvious ND

Riddle me this:

What if the shooter releases the mag, grab a new one and before inserting the mag, he sees a miss and fires an aimed shot?

Was that "during a reload"...DQ him?

[Vlad]

If there are targets visible, the shooter has two hands on the gun, the gun is pointed downrange and an unaimed shot goes off. The shooter had just had an AD. And should receive a Match DQ for unsafe gun handling.

Based on what rule?

In the situation I described the shooter was moving and was not holding the gun in a normal shooting position. If the gun fires that's an AD. because the shooter had to be moving with their finger in the trigger guard.

I must have misunderstood you, because I didn't see anywhere in your scenario that the shooter was moving. If the shooter is standing still, then there is no rule DQ'ing him.

[sfinney]

My kinda shooters stop themselves when they feel they've crossed into ND land. I dislike the types that continue even after an obvious ND

Riddle me this:

What if the shooter releases the mag, grab a new one and before inserting the mag, he sees a miss and fires an aimed shot?

Was that "during a reload"...DQ him?

In that case its an aimed shot, not an AD, no problem.

[ima45dv8]

My kinda shooters stop themselves when they feel they've crossed into ND land. I dislike the types that continue even after an obvious ND

Yep. I like people who take responsibility for their actions.

Riddle me this:

What if the shooter releases the mag, grab a new one and before inserting the mag, he sees a miss and fires an aimed shot?

Was that "during a reload"...DQ him?

No DQ. That's an deliberate, aimed shot from a one-handed freestyle position.

[bayoupirate]

If there are targets visible, the shooter has two hands on the gun, the gun is pointed downrange and an unaimed shot goes off. The shooter had just had an AD. And should receive a Match DQ for unsafe gun handling.

Based on what rule?

In the situation I described the shooter was moving and was not holding the gun in a normal shooting position. If the gun fires that's an AD. because the shooter had to be moving with their finger in the trigger guard.

I must have misunderstood you, because I didn't see anywhere in your scenario that the shooter was moving. If the shooter is standing still, then there is no rule DQ'ing him.

You didn't misunderstand. I forgot to put it in there. But it was in my twisted little mind!

[Vlad]

If there are targets visible, the shooter has two hands on the gun, the gun is pointed downrange and an unaimed shot goes off. The shooter had just had an AD. And should receive a Match DQ for unsafe gun handling.

Based on what rule?

In the situation I described the shooter was moving and was not holding the gun in a normal shooting position. If the gun fires that's an AD. because the shooter had to be moving with their finger in the trigger guard.

I must have misunderstood you, because I didn't see anywhere in your scenario that the shooter was moving. If the shooter is standing still, then there is no rule DQ'ing him.

You didn't misunderstand. I forgot to put it in there. But it was in my twisted little mind!

I see now. You are saying that when talking to you I should put myself in the same mindframe I use when talking to my wife.

[mactiger]

Accidental discharges are defined and covered under several different rules now--it's no longer just a shot that strikes within 3 meters or leaves the bay. If it happens during a reload, it's unsafe for the reasons cited here by some: your finger was on the trigger when you weren't engaging targets. (This rule comes from one of the 4 basic rules of gun safety.) Doesn't matter what you hit.

Now, since some slightly wild scenarios have been postulated here, it may come down to a judgement call on the part of the RO as to whether the reload was completed and/or the shot was fired intentionally. Just because the rules say what an AD is doesn't mean you don't have to actually think at times. Use your best judgement, guided by your experience and common sense, (and what you actually saw) and make the best call you can make.

That's my .02, anyway.

Troy

[Shooter Grrl]

By the way guys, this was just a devil's advocate post. I've never seen an AD during reload actually hit a target! But I watched a shooter AD during a reload and get two a hits immediately afterwards - without skipping a beat. A cool cucumber, IMHO

[johnhurd]

If there are targets visible, the shooter has two hands on the gun, the gun is pointed downrange and an unaimed shot goes off. The shooter had just had an AD. And should receive a Match DQ for unsafe gun handling.

Not only do they pound the rules into the ROs, they bestow them with powers bordering on the devine.

[LPatterson]

If there are targets visible, the shooter has two hands on the gun, the gun is pointed downrange and an unaimed shot goes off. The shooter had just had an AD. And should receive a Match DQ for unsafe gun handling.

Based on what rule?

Vlad,

8.5.1 Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged. The firearm must be pointed in a safe direction. “Movement” is

defined as any of the actions below:

8.5.1.1 Taking more than one step in any direction

8.5.1.2 Changing shooting stance (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.).

10.4.6 A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting at targets.

10.5.10 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during move-ment

in accordance with Section 8.5.

In the situation I described the shooter was moving and was not holding the gun in a normal shooting position. If the gun fires that's an AD. because the shooter had to be moving with their finger in the trigger guard.

At the Nationals that I worked the CRO ran all the Super Squad shooters and several of them took more than 1 step with their fingers on the trigger and no one was DQed. I think it comes down to the RO's determination as to what is happening in that particular situation. Did Michael Voight or whoever take a second step with the trigger preped because the sight picture didn't look to them on that first step. With 1 second reloads and the gun tilted to the side did the RO really see the finger go on the trigger before the second hand acquired a firm grip?

Without being there to actually see what occurred it is sometimes difficult to make rulings based on what someone has written.

[bayoupirate]

Vlad,

I'm not sure if that puts me in good company, or if my feeling should be hurt.

I'll go with the latter. Me fingers no keep up with me mind.

John,

No divinity here brother. The point was. You can't be inside the shooter's head and tell them what their intention was, and that is a point they could argue at arbitration.

Gosh, If I'd listen to you guys I think I was some SheGod!

[Schutzenmeister]

Thats the tricky part, the identifying if the shot went off DURING the reload, or right after... whats the definition of the end of a reload has been hashed many times, but I think the latest I saw was once the mag is seated, no matter how many hands are on the gun. ...

I had substianlly this exact situation happen while running a stage at the 2004 EU Championships. The shooter reloaded and the gun went bang almost instantly after he seated the mag. I stopped the shooter and was debating issuing a DQ. The shot in fact was a was a very clean "A" hit on a target at about 8 yards.

I called the RM over for a consultation. The question he asked me was "When the shooter did his unload and show clear, did a round eject from the chamber?" Well in this case the answer was yes. The RM ruled no AD since the reload was complete. Had it not been complete, the gun could not have stripped the next round from the new magazine and chambered it. (The shooter was issued a reshoot since I had stopped him and there was technically no reason to stop him.)

I'm not saying this was a good call or a bad call. But it was a DEFINITIVE call based on observable evidence.

[mpolans]

Thats the tricky part, the identifying if the shot went off DURING the reload, or right after... whats the definition of the end of a reload has been hashed many times, but I think the latest I saw was once the mag is seated, no matter how many hands are on the gun. ...

I had substianlly this exact situation happen while running a stage at the 2004 EU Championships. The shooter reloaded and the gun went bang almost instantly after he seated the mag. I stopped the shooter and was debating issuing a DQ. The shot in fact was a was a very clean "A" hit on a target at about 8 yards.

I called the RM over for a consultation. The question he asked me was "When the shooter did his unload and show clear, did a round eject from the chamber?" Well in this case the answer was yes. The RM ruled no AD since the reload was complete. Had it not been complete, the gun could not have stripped the next round from the new magazine and chambered it. (The shooter was issued a reshoot since I had stopped him and there was technically no reason to stop him.)

I'm not saying this was a good call or a bad call. But it was a DEFINITIVE call based on observable evidence.

I agree that it can be very hard to distinguish. For those here in the greater DC area that attended the April Fredricksburg match, you might recall a stage that most shooters coming up to the last shooting position with a target behind a wall almost 90 degrees to their right about 3 feet away; the target was virtually perpendicular to the range.

Keep in mind that I'm a lefty who pushes the mag release with my index finger, so if I turn 85 degrees to the right, the RO isn't going to be able to see my left hand. When I got to this last target, my slide was locked back and I was doing a standing reload. I inserted the mag and as soon as I did, I fired two shots. The RO couldn't see my hands; I had turn the gun towards the target, but my arms weren't out stretched; my arms were above waist level; I definitely wasn't look down the sights; and I doubt had both hands gripping the gun. By some of the definitions given here, I would have been DQ'd for an AD even though I fired two perfectly intentional shots.

Seems like we either have to live with it being a judgment call by the RO which, barring mind-reading, might result in some erroneous calls or you'd have to rewrite the rule so that a call could be made based on purely objective standards (difficult to do since the rule itself rests largely on the intent of the shooter at the time the shot was fired).

[shred]

Feeding the next round off the mag is pretty good evidence the mag is seated.. but.. if the shooter's finger is on the trigger and they slam one home, the gun could go bang and the next round feed as well.

I'm ok with 'did the round feed from the mag?' if the bang is noticeably after the slam.

[Ron Ankeny]

Use your best judgement, guided by your experience and common sense, (and what you actually saw) and make the best call you can make.

That, in combination with responsible shooters, would make life a whole lot easier for everyone.

[TBF]

" What you actually saw " AMEN !

I was shooting a few weeks ago and heard RO scream " Finger " , I was sure my finger wasn't in the trigger guard.

When I asked about this the RO replied " I didn't actually see it , but I think it may have been " .

Travis F.

[Scooter]

I just had a similiar incident at a sanctioned IDPA match. I screwed up on the last stage and left cover with an empty gun, ran back to cover to do the reload. When I did the reload, I didn't have my gun in the normal position, I held it kind of low but pointed down range so when I hit the slide release, my thumb slipped and hit the trigger. The shot did happen to hit a target also. I stopped myself, but apparantly I was the only one who knew I AD. I think when I was backing up to get behind cover, I put the RO in a position where he couldn't see the gun. So everyone else just thought I took another shot.

I know I have heard people mention that you should just keep shooting until the RO stops you. So what is the right thing to do?

Oh worst part, I was leading my division when this happened.

[ima45dv8]

I know I have heard people mention that you should just keep shooting until the RO stops you. So what is the right thing to do?

Sounds like you already know the answer to that one:

I stopped myself.....