Should We Not Submit The Classifier To Uspsa?

[DJPoLo]

Consider if you will:

Our club hosted its monthly USPSA match and ran Classifier 99-16. Unfortunately, we didn't stake down the poppers and as the day progressed and 30+ competitors shot it, the rightmost popper creeped to the right a bunch.

By the time it was noticed it was at least a foot to the right, making the shot on that popper a bit more difficult due to the barricade.

When it was noticed, a competitor (who is also a past club president and very knowledgable in the area of USPSA rules) pointed it out to the Match Director and it was corrected.

The Match Director then conferred with the Range Master and it was decided that the classifier should not be submitted to USPSA since it was not 100% accurate in its setup for all the competitors.

Now I offer up for discussion: Should we not submit the scores to USPSA? That will make about 40 competitors very unhappy.

Should we have tossed the whole stage from the match?

Should we submit that classifier as normal?

I'm interested in hearing your opinions and reasons why.

-Chet

Edited April 2, 2006 by DJPoLo

[shred]

All I can say is I went back and looked at the stage after it was 'corrected' and it was identical to what I shot it in every way I could tell. Why should my score not go in?

Here's the stage: http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/cm99-16.gif

Somebody please tell me where the centerline and the barricade intersect.

[XRe]

By the time it was noticed it was at least a foot forward and right, making the shot on that popper a bit more difficult due to the barricade.

Anal retentive point of order

It only moved to the right You could see the gouges in the ground it slid down. A good 1+'... Enough that you could now have a shoot through on the right hand array, if you leaned hard enough and shot a D...

Chet, you don't waste any time when there's controversy involved, do you??? :lol:

BTW... it was my fault the thing moved. Should've staked that puppy down... but who expects a popper to slide laterally over a foot out of position??? I guess I do, now.... heh heh....

Edited April 1, 2006 by XRe

[shred]

hmm.. the 'gouge' was shorter than my shoe, which is a size 10. Obviously the stage changed some during the day, but I'd be hard-pressed to find one outdoors that didn't. Wind blows or not, poppers dig in or not, berm slopes or not, ...

What are the tolerances on classifier stage setup? Can't be zero, can't be infinite, right?

I think the best answer is to ask USPSA and see what they think, but in this case, I think that nobody would have ever noticed and nobody's score would be the slightest bit different.

[AlamoShooter]

hmm.. the 'gouge' was shorter than my shoe, which is a size 10. Obviously the stage changed some during the day, but I'd be hard-pressed to find one outdoors that didn't. Wind blows or not, poppers dig in or not, berm slopes or not, ...

What are the tolerances on classifier stage setup? Can't be zero, can't be infinite, right?

I think the best answer is to ask USPSA and see what they think, but in this case, I think that nobody would have ever noticed and nobody's score would be the slightest bit different.

!Size 10! Shred oh no ! Your in a TEXas club on an Internationl web site ... don't tell them you only have a size 10 foot size does matter

[LPatterson]

Probably not the answer you want to hear but I don't think it should be submitted. I helped set-up a special classifier match this weekend and we were arguing over targets 2" off line.

[Jim Norman]

A slight thread drift here.

I think that the initial set up of almost all of our classifers could be much easier. Right now we measure target to target or edge of popper to edge of popper.

I think a radial grid or polar type diagram would be easier. Have two starting points and give the center of each target stand or plate or popper an AB measurement. two tape measures, each hooked over a spin and you are asured of a clean set-up, no adding or subtracting needed. Everything has no choice but to be in the correct position realative to the two pins. Ideally you would have an easy way to set the stage square tot he backstop as well as assuring that the stage is always 100% correct. You would have to account only for target lean and that is always a problem and one that changes as the day progresses. Wind, worn or loose hinges on poppers, targets not staples squarely to the sticks, but we have all of those already PLUS the difficulty of layout.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Jim

[HSMITH]

Well, here is another point of view......

One reason I pay to shoot the matches is to have classifiers submitted. I would be PISSED if I paid the full match fee and the classifier wasn't submitted due to a popper moving a foot over several squads. It isn't like the stage got a lot harder or a lot easier due to the popper moving and the set-up is close enough to be considered 'fair' over the course of the match. I would want it submitted.

[Chris Keen]

Probably not the answer you all want to hear, but when I hear DJPOLO say that the popper moved A BUNCH i say to myself, if it moved that much then it aint right. And if it aint right, it aint fair ..... to your shooters and to the rest of the USA.

My answer would be dont send it in. It can probably still count for the match score. Just because the 40+ shooters paid a match fee dosent make it right either.

In my mind it's either right or it's not. And 2" is probably not a huge deal outdoors on gravel / dirt, but we run our classifiers indoors and on concrete 2" makes a difference. It's too easy to just shift it over alittle.

[XRe]

hmm.. the 'gouge' was shorter than my shoe, which is a size 10.

It's possible that the "gouge" got filled in a little bit by being stepped on, or something. Seriously, the popper was centered on the centerline, which requires more than a foot of movement from original position....

[ChuckS]

If the stage changed after the first shooter, ya gotta toss it from the match. If it's not the same for everybody, then to be fair, dump it. And I think that also means don't submit the results unless you have some way to determine who shot the "correct" stage. You may want to offer a "free" classifier fee for the folks or run it again in addition to your next stages and let them shoot it free. It was a set up problem so that would probably be fair also.

Later,

Chuck

[shred]

So exactly where does the barricade sit on the centerline again?

[John Heiter]

It wasn't that great a movie but did you ever see the "Legend of Bagger Vance" when Matt Damon accidentally moves his ball in the middle of the big game and the little kid says "Only you and me seen it, and I won't tell a soul. I promise. Nobody will know." and Damon replies "I will, Hardy".

[Loves2Shoot]

Probably not the answer you want to hear but I don't think it should be submitted. I helped set-up a special classifier match this weekend and we were arguing over targets 2" off line.

I've shot a couple classifiers and I'd be hard pressed to say that many of them were within 2" tollerences.

If you toss it, give your competitors back their $, that is only fair. If you charged for a service (USPSA classifer) and you didn't deliver the service and keep the cash, your stealing from your customer. It is what you would expect from any business/service, and yes your local club is a business, with paying customers and all.

That's just the way I see it.

ps. If it can move, paint it or stake it.

Edited April 2, 2006 by Loves2Shoot

[DJPoLo]

Chet, you don't waste any time when there's controversy involved, do you??? :lol:

Heh. I guess not.

I'm just interested in hearing some opinions and I'm thankful that these forums exist to allow us to do that.

What it comes down to, for me, is the reputation and integrity of our club for being correct and appropriate in our application of the USPSA rules.

-Chet

[AlamoShooter]

Chet and Dave are trying maby Too hard to do the right thing. The ground for even the barricade was not level and the shooter had to stand 'just a little' out of wack. It made the sage just a bit harder that if it had ben level.

I did not shoot it good or bad, Iam at my average, but I do not need the classifier, but some do need it. If it had started to rain for some of the shooters and not all I think the thing would stand and be sent in. The weather was great I have a sun burn to prove it. If it was voted on I would say send it in = it will only move shooters UP not down and a big shoot is coming in a few weeks.

Jamie Foote

The entire Austin crew is first class and well worth the drive from San Antonio

Edited April 2, 2006 by AlamoShooter

[DJPoLo]

Somebody please tell me where the centerline and the barricade intersect.

Ummm... At the center of the barricade?

-Chet

Edited April 2, 2006 by DJPoLo

[GeneralChang]

I had a decent score on the stage in question today and I most certainly would like it sent in, but as Chet put it, not at the cost of our club's integrity.

A suggestion, redo the classifier for next month's match alongside the classifier for May's match as a makeup if USPSA rules allow it. If we throw out the classifier, don't we lose the activity credit?

[DJPoLo]

The ground for even the barricade was not level and the shooter had to stand 'just a little' out of whack. It made the stage just a bit harder than if it had been level.

Now this an interesting point.

Many of the ranges that I shoot at regularly have an incline to them, allowing water to drain out of the bays.

Very few classifiers (read: None) are set up to compensate for this.

Does this make them set up "incorrectly"?

Interesting...

-Chet

[Tom Mainus]

The ground for even the barricade was not level and the shooter had to stand 'just a little' out of whack. It made the stage just a bit harder than if it had been level.

Now this an interesting point.

Many of the ranges that I shoot at regularly have an incline to them, allowing water to drain out of the bays.

Very few classifiers (read: None) are set up to compensate for this.

Does this make them set up "incorrectly"?

Interesting...

-Chet

In some of our bays we have the same thing going on. 5' at the shoulders from the shooters view point might only be actually 4' at the shoulders of the actual target, depending on how much of an incline you have. We have a national level RM in the area and that is straight from him.

Tom

[North]

Evidently the stage only got harder, so no one "really" benefited from the moving popper. USPSA won't penalize the people that did poorly on the stage, ie 5% below class. The people that did well will be pissed if it isn't included. Shoot though is a nonfactor on a popper, if the RO don't realise it you got bigger problems.

I say no harm no foul. Send it in.

Edited April 2, 2006 by North

[AWLAZS]

AT out last club match we had a target out of position. We did not send the scores in. We did give every one that was still around a chance to reshoot it to send in. There was only 3-4 people around at this time though.

The stage stayed in the match

[tbair]

Chet and Dave are trying maby Too hard to do the right thing. The ground for even the barricade was not level and the shooter had to stand 'just a little' out of wack. It made the sage just a bit harder that if it had ben level.

I did not shoot it good or bad, Iam at my average, but I do not need the classifier, but some do need it. If it had started to rain for some of the shooters and not all I think the thing would stand and be sent in. The weather was great I have a sun burn to prove it. If it was voted on I would say send it in = it will only move shooters UP not down and a big shoot is coming in a few weeks.

Jamie Foote

The entire Austin crew is first class and well worth the drive from San Antonio

I am a new shooter, but it would seem to me that all classifers are "out of wack" at some level. The question is not, is it out of wack, but is it out of wack enough to make a difference in classification levels, does it make a B shooter a C or an A. If you really wanted to do it right you could look for significant changes in class throughout the day and see if they clustered in the times in question. You probably wouldn't have enough samples to get any true statistical power but you could look for a trend. Voting does no good since everyone who did well votes yes those that did poorly no. It seems like the MD should be figuring out did this deviation rise to the level where aberant classifications will result.

[XRe]

Voting does no good since everyone who did well votes yes those that did poorly no. It seems like the MD should be figuring out did this deviation rise to the level where aberant classifications will result.

Absolutely true - and that's exactly what's happening shred had a great run...

My feeling (I'm the MD in question, and also the turkey who set the stage up and didn't paint/stake... ) is that the difference was not enough to appreciably change scores on the course. My squad was second last to shoot it, and it didn't seem any different when we shot it...

The question, I think, is more to the point of the integrity of the course as a classifier if something's moved, and at what point should the stage be considered altered enough to not send in for classification... This is probably a good question for HQ, actually - maybe one of our resident AD/Rules-Experts will jump in and give some perspective, too...

Scott - no worries, if it doesn't go as a classifier, financial arrangements will be made

Sheldon - USPSA only allows us to run one course for classification a month, unless we're running a Special Classifier match (which includes 2-4 classifiers). We can do two of those per year, and June will be the 6 month point from our last one. Sounds like a good time to do one, to me, even if this classifier goes in... We could also just reshoot that classifier next month, if it doesn't go in this month...

[shred]

Somebody please tell me where the centerline and the barricade intersect.

Ummm... At the center of the barricade?

-Chet

Really? It's not specified in the drawing, nor the text is my point. Are we supposed to just assume where it goes on an otherwise measured-to-the-edges-of-the-popper-disk-not-the-centerlines classifier stage?

(this is not a complaint about this particular matches set-up, it's a complaint about the drawing in general)

I did well on this one and want it to go in if only for that reason. I have no doubt that that popper could have been moved 2 feet in any direction and my score would have been the same.

I could go re-shoot it again sometime when it's set up "correctly" (whatever that means, given bay slopes and 2" tolerances and all the rest), but to me that seems like a big waste of time and another perfectly good classifier opportunity.