Why's Everybody Always Picking On Me?

[Ted Murphy]

The real miracle would be if someone ever came up with a shooting sport and set of rules that made everyone happy.

Every club has that one guy who is going to tell you your competition shooting will get you killed. I think it's the law or something.

I don't see how developing the skillset to do well in IDPA, USPSA, AP,etc WON'T help you if something bad happens.

In a competition class Ernie Langdon told us that if IDPA were to be "real life", we would all show up at the range every weekend and some time in the next 20 years someone would fire a few rounds.

Never shot a texas star or windmill, so I don't know what I'm missing- or not.

Ted

[Flexmoney]

I don't pay much attention to stage props and cartoon characters...I'm usually too busy pasting targets, resetting the stage or running shooters.

I try not to let props and cartoons distract me from my shooting, when it's my turn to shoot.

If somebody shows up with the idea to dress a stage up...I say go for it. Whatever they come up with has got to be better than me whitewashing everything the same color.

[boo radley]

If somebody shows up with the idea to dress a stage up...I say go for it. Whatever they come up with has got to be better than me whitewashing everything the same color.

I actually think clean props, painted or stained in a uniform shade, are MORE attractive than the "Coney Island meets Arkansas Junkyard" approach. No disrespect to either.

I like stages that look like they could belong on a golf-course. There's a club I've shot at a few times, "Ant Hill," near the coastof NC that's amazing. Not a cigarette butt, nor piece of old rusting brass, nor patch of bare dirt. Each bay is manicured Bermuda; looks great.

Just sayin' is all...

[Genghis]

Props are good. Anything that makes a stage interesting is good. Stages will vary in "realism," but as long as they test and improve shooting skills they are good stages.

[revchuck]

I'm wondering if any IDPA/IPSC shooter whether police, military or civilian has ever been engaged in a real gunfight.

There are a good many IDPA/USPSA members in the military, so you know that there have been.

A couple of issues back in American Handgunner, Massad Ayoob profiled a guy who was a cop and IDPA shooter (could just as well have been USPSA) who went over as a contractor, went on a raid and ended up taking down six BGs using a dot-sighted M4. The subject noted that if the shootout had been a course of fire at a IDPA/USPSA match, everybody would've fussed about the lack of shooting challenge.

[ipscbob]

I actually think that what Avery is preaching might bring the sport back to it's roots but might also result in quite a bit less participation. I shoot IPSC because it is FUN. I avoid IDPA because of the macho GI JOE like pre-occupation it embodies. Based on my experience, I don't think that I am in the minority on this one. Be careful what you wish for.......

[Jim Norman]

Shoot!

Now that is an expression, it is also what I like to do. That said, I liked the scenario based stages. I would still shoot them, I have no problem shooting a COF that has no "Basis in reality" I doubt that I will be in a situation that has me facing down 14 goblins with my P-16 or my Sig226, but the stage that requires more shots gives me several things. More shooting and that is fun, more chances to screw up a reload and that make for competition as does the more chances to run by a target or get ahead of myself and miss a target. Multiple movers provide the same thing.

Ideally none of us would ever engage anything more than paper and there is no pucker factor in shooting paper that doesn't shoot back.

Does it hurt the sport to say: "You are changing your tire when a gange of zombified bikers attacks you, you grab your trusty zombi-blaster and go to town to defend yourself." Likewise, does it hurt to say:" standing in box A with your hands at sides, engage all targets with sufficent rounds to score. There are 8 IPSC and 5 steel."

Both work, both are fun. What isn't fun is the stage that resembles a classifer like the El Prez or Bang N Clang and that is all there is. Not enough of a stage to recover on if you screw up, All you have a a high crash and burn factor.

More rounds, IF, they are properly placed in the COF is a good thing. It gives us more bang for the buck so to speak.

Jim

Edited March 10, 2006 by Jim Norman

[38superman]

I doubt that I will be in a situation that has me facing down 14 goblins with my P-16 or my Sig226

Don't worry Jim I got all the Goblins last night with my SV.

Took a lot of ammo but I think I got them all.

I just wish I had read the label before I drank all that cough syrup.

Tls

Edited March 9, 2006 by tlshores

[3GunF1Guy]

Check the new USPSA club in Spokane, Wa

Inland Northwest Action Shooters

They are promoting exactly what was addressed in the Front Sight article.

Here is some of what they say on their website:

"Practical Shooting is a sport involving the use of combat-proven firearms equipment to negotiate simulated “real world” self-defense scenarios.

Shooters competing in INAS events are strongly encouraged to use practical handguns and holsters that are truly suitable for self-defense use. The use of “race-gun” equipment such as ghost holsters and extended length magazines do not fit with the purpose and philosophy of INAS matches.

INAS discourages “competition use only” equipment because the main principle of INAS is to test the skill and ability of individuals -- not equipment, ultra-competitive attitudes, or gamesmanship."

Do you think more clubs should market their clubs this way or should we be doing the same thing we are now. I am not say that what they are doing is "bad", they may have even found a new niche for USPSA clubs?

Scott

[ima45dv8]

No, I do not think more clubs should market USPSA this way. In fact, I don't see them as marketing USPSA at all, despite their boasts regarding affiliation.

If they want to start their own type of match and call it "XYZ" Whatever match, that's cool. But if a club is going to host a USPSA match and make a big point of being "....fully affiliated with USPSA", then they shouldn't start telling me what their "strong preferences" are for the type of equipment I use. Fully Affiliated means they get the whole package, including all recognized equipment divisions. Saying USPSA-recognized divisions don't fit the purpose and philosophy of their mindset while promoting the event as a USPSA event is completely devoid of rational thought.

Can't run with the Limited or Open guys? Well, just tell them they aren't welcome at a USPSA match. Anyone doing that should be struck by lightning. If it was already Friday I'd start a Flamer about how much this sort of ass-backwards rationalization pisses me off. Hell, I don't even own an Open gun and this pisses me off.

I guess the next thing they'll do is read a bedtime story before each stage and tell folks they must retain partially-used magazines -- all while waving the USPSA flag.

Edited to add: I wonder if they sought Rob Leatham's or Dave Sevigny's permission before hanging their pictures right next to the text of the exclusionary 'purposes and principles of mindset' tripe? Sad to think their likenesses might lend credibility to it.

Edited March 10, 2006 by ima45dv8

[Singlestack]

No, I do not think more clubs should market USPSA this way. In fact, I don't see them as marketing USPSA at all, despite their boasts regarding affiliation.

If they want to start their own type of match and call it "XYZ" Whatever match, that's cool. But if a club is going to host a USPSA match and make a big point of being "....fully affiliated with USPSA", then they shouldn't start telling me what their "strong preferences" are for the type of equipment I use. Fully Affiliated means they get the whole package, including all recognized equipment divisions. Saying USPSA-recognized divisions don't fit the purpose and philosophy of their mindset while promoting the event as a USPSA event is completely deviod of rational thought.

Can't compete with the Limited or Open guys? Well, just tell them they aren't welcome at a USPSA match. They should be struck by lightning. If it was already Friday I'd start a Flamer about how much this sort of ass-backwards rationalization pisses me off.

I gues the next thing they'll do is read a bedtime story before each stage and tell folks they must retain partially-used magazines -- all while waving the USPSA flag.

+1

[shred]

Nothing says "welcome" like drawing down on your visitors.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Check the new USPSA club in Spokane, Wa

Inland Northwest Action Shooters

They are promoting exactly what was addressed in the Front Sight article.

Here is some of what they say on their website:

"Practical Shooting is a sport involving the use of combat-proven firearms equipment to negotiate simulated “real world” self-defense scenarios.

Shooters competing in INAS events are strongly encouraged to use practical handguns and holsters that are truly suitable for self-defense use. The use of “race-gun” equipment such as ghost holsters and extended length magazines do not fit with the purpose and philosophy of INAS matches.

INAS discourages “competition use only” equipment because the main principle of INAS is to test the skill and ability of individuals -- not equipment, ultra-competitive attitudes, or gamesmanship."

Do you think more clubs should market their clubs this way or should we be doing the same thing we are now. I am not say that what they are doing is "bad", they may have even found a new niche for USPSA clubs?

Scott

They can shoot whatever they want, just don't call it USPSA/IPSC.

[Chuck D]

Ron Avery's article addresses the fundamental question of whether USPSA is "practical" in the true sense of the word or not. Bravo to him for sharing his views knowing damn well he'll get blasted for doing so.

for those of us who grew up with the Cooper Tunnel, the Rhodesian Wall, and Standards that required shooting out to and including the 50 yard line...the Texas Star and the current trend of "gamey" stage design falls far short of the relevant shooting challenges we used to enjoy. We can surely keep the practical aspect IPSC was founded on without becoming another IDPA or using gimics and trick props to draw shooters to our matches. After all... it is called the International PRACTICAL Shooting Confederation as well as the United States PRACTICAL Shooting Association.

I've said many times before...we as an organization MUST finally come to the realization that we either have to remain true to the sport's founding principles or admit that USPSA is a game thereby freeing itself from this constraint. We can no longer have it both ways. As is the case with many participant sports...the members seem to lose perspective of the founding principles. It isn't a matter of having been "shot at" or a real or perceived notion of not being as "competitive" as one once was that invalidates their opinions and concerns.

IPSC's past and the ideals put forth by the founders of this sport still have merit...and should be considered relevant... not just paid "lip service" when it suits our interests to do so.

[kruger]

I read Mr. Avery's article a few days ago.

I thought it odd that Mr. Avery dislikes the TX* and wants to see more 50 yard standards while stating his preference for "practical" shooting. From my point of view, the skill tested by the TX* (shooting an erratically moving target) is more relavent to practical shooting than a 50 yard standard (shooting with extreme accuracy). Could familiarity be an issue?

I do agree that the windmill is inane and doesn't test much of anything.

As to the props and storylines... in my opinion, it is window dressing. As long as skills are being tested, I don't care how you dress the COF up.

I like Eric's solution to the gamesman v. martial artist conflict:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=33091

Respectfully,

Mark Kruger

[Chris Keen]

Although INAS will allow “Open Class” shooters to participate in monthly matches, we strongly prefer and encourage Production, Limited-10, and Revolver divisions.

What happened to Limited ???

Just makes me want to drive out to Washington, and see just how welcome I really would be with my race gun. Or even better to beat their top shooter with my Prod. Rig Although they say that they will never post "overall" results ........... probably for that very reason!

Edited March 11, 2006 by C.Keen

[Chris Keen]

If the sports are supposed to be pure "Practical" then you should be able to max the stage by running away and avoiding the confrontation entirely at the beep.

NOW THATS REALLY REALLY FUNNY ......... awesome idea!

Edited March 11, 2006 by C.Keen

[MstngLX50]

IPSC doesn't closely resemble combat, and neither does IDPA. That doesn't mean that competing in either won't help you in a real gunfight. Both sports reward accurate, quick placement of rounds on the target. So does combat.

In Iraq I didn't encounter spinning steel plates that I had to knock down. I did encounter targets presenting only a partial shot while moving. If you can hit a spinning plate you can probably hit an exposed head running behind a wall.

In Iraq I didn't have an S_I with 20 round magazines, I had an M16 with a C-More and 30 round magazines. The fundamental approach was still the same, rapid engagement with accurate shot placement. Needing to take cover while reloading in combat generally makes itself readily apparent while bullets crack around you. I don't think we really need to focus on it at a freaking IPSC match on Saturday morning.

This "lets be more like the real world" crap is getting old. If that's what you want to do I'm going to win. I'm just going to pull back and call in fire support on the whole range at the beep. Without the knowledge that someone is going to be shooting at you as soon as you breach the door it's not going to be the same. Get over it, or go play paintball or something. Better yet join the military, they can use you.

When I'd just returned from Iraq I started shooting IPSC again. One of the gentlemen at the club I was shooting at invited me to an IDPA match the next weekend. I thought okay cool I'll try it. I got there and the first thing I noticed is that they spent most of their free time telling me either how messed up IPSC was or how well they'd do in a real gunfight. On my second stage there was a door to enter and a room to clear. My way of doing it didn't meet their requirements and I was given some arbitrary penalty for not doing the right thing or some nonesense. Nevermind that I'd done it exactly as I had several hundred times, successfully in a combat zone. I left then and there, I don't need accountants and IT people telling me how to be tactikewl.

At the USPSA match last weekend a guy was complaining to me that the stages were like a carnival, this isn't realistic at all, and didn't I agree since I'd been in the Marines. I did agree, I told him to put all his gear in a pack run down the store we passed 8km back on the way in and back. Then dig a hole and get in it while I set off arty around him. Then when that's clear pop up and engage the two targets visible. As for me I'd rather continue on with the "Bubblegum" IPSC that I happen to find enjoyable.

IPSC/IDPA can only be one of two things, a game, or serious training. The game may promote enhanced gun handling skills but it is not a substitute for application specific instruction in combat shooting. The two are and always will be mutually exclusive.

It's a game, auto racing doesn't replicate driving on the street, at least not my street. And IPSC doesn't replicate fighting with a firearm.

That's just my oppinion I could be wrong, but I won't admit it.

Regards,

Alan

[Chris Keen]

AMEN BROTHER ALAN !!! :D I think I just found a new friend!

+100

If you want to learn to be as tactical as possible ............ go join the military. I did my 8 years in the Army from 1991 - 1999. I think every male (or female if they want to) should have to serve at least 2 years in the military upon reaching 18 years of age.

If you simply want to complain (every week) about my favorite hobby ............ just go away!

Edited March 14, 2006 by C.Keen

[Steve Moneypenny]

To the origional post... people pick on you to make themselves feel better... Smile at them and agree it just confuses them...

(not aimed at anyone here)To anyone who uses the phrase "a real man" i just want to beat them with their own broken limbs... stop attacking my or anyone elses masculinity. your trivial attempt to feel like more of a man than you are by demeaning others is childish and insecure. I have said this and only did so as a joke to people i consider friends. but others take it to the limit.

Edited March 15, 2006 by Flexmoney

[DaG]

What is a "test" of shooting as it relates to USPSA? Long shots with iron sights? 7 yd weak hand targets covered in no-shoots? I wonder after reading Mr. Avery's article. It seems he would prefer the IDPA,low rd ct. style without the "engagement" rules so to speak. Also how does the "test" relate to open class? It seems to me that trigger control, sight alignment,grip and every thing else that goes along with shooting in general is a test.......any info on the "test" would be greatly appreciated.

DaG

[Genghis]

This "lets be more like the real world" crap is getting old. If that's what you want to do I'm going to win. I'm just going to pull back and call in fire support on the whole range at the beep.

LOL!

[38superman]

IPSC doesn't closely resemble combat, and neither does IDPA. That doesn't mean that competing in either won't help you in a real gunfight. Both sports reward accurate, quick placement of rounds on the target. So does combat.

Regards,

Alan

Alan,

Thanks for one of the best posts in a long time.

I agree with everything you said, but I would like to make one point.

When this argument about the tactical value of IPSC or IDPA comes up, the folks that advocate "real world" stages aren't talking about military style warfare.

I don't believe any of us have illusions about the need to breech an entry and take out enemy combatants.

We are not soldiers.

When a civilian talks about tactical situations they are not speaking about the battlefield.

They are speaking about the prospect of using a handgun on the street or to defend their home from intruders.

If any of us ever have the misfortune of a gunfight, I hope the speed and accuracy learned in this game will give us a fighting chance.

If somehow changing the stage designs or philosophy can enhance that prospect, fine.

There are two basic things I want from this sport.

1. I want to have fun shooting.

2. I want to be challenged such that I improve my gun handling skills.

I do however like the idea of close air support.

If I could use a laser to paint the car that just cut me off in traffic and ..... never mind.

Tls

Edited March 21, 2006 by tlshores

[38superman]

Ha..... I finally got the last word.

Tls

[bayoupirate]

I'm just glad to see people that actually have passion for this sport and their opinion.

If every agrees completely with one view or another. We will certainly travel down one road of evolution to become some more pure form of that line of thought.

Instead, passion and zeal on both sides brings variety and the learning from one another that creates an ever growing set of skills, ideas, challenges and most importantly FUN!

When this stops being fun, I'm gonna quit!

Until then, Keep up the passion.