Smm 3 Gun Match

[RiggerJJ]

I agree Benny, par times or max times for stages will keep things moving along, espcially on the long rifle stages. At our local club we use par times and it really makes a difference in how you shoot the stage, along with how long it takes for a squad to run it.

and I also agree that the number of rounds per firearm should have been more equal, but I also felt somewhat that the pistol was used just as a token most of the time during this match. I'm not at all advocating pistol-only stages thou. The more multi gun the better!

But as one of "the little people" I don't agree with supersquads. I like having the opportunity to shoot with you guys! Yea, this match was like no other with the conditions, but how often will that happen? If it happened all the time, I think there would be very few 3 gun shooters!

a couple more suggestions;

Don't use those auto resetting targets EVER again (stage 5). they have proven during the past couple of years not to be very reliable, and they are darn near impossible to knock down at 300 yards with 55 grain bullets. If my memory serves me, they were designed for a max distance of 200 yards? Our club has used regular flash targets out to 425 yards with great results, just have the spotting RO use binocs.

Don't give out awards for combined overall catagories, in fact, don't give out any combined overall awards. There is NO comparison when combining divisions. The overall high lady got a trophy, why? What about the high TACTICAL lady? Or high HEAVY METAL senior? The high catagories should be awarded by division, not overall.

Make all of the stages equal in complexity if you are going to use the 100% rule for the stage winners. Stage 10 was a shotgun speed shoot where 1/2 a second made a great difference in your stage percentage. It shouldn't be equal in stage points to a complex 3gun stage (such as stage 7) that takes nearly 60 seconds for the stage winner to finish. Stage 10 should have been more complex. I guess what I am saying is these types of matches are no place for short speed shoots.

I had a great time, but try to fix that weather thingy! thats 2 out of the past 3 years that it has rained on saturday!

ROs; thanks for sticking it out and for a great job! see ya at Raton!

jj

[kurtm]

I would like to heartily congratulate the staff of the 11th annual SMM3G for all thier hard work in making this match go! These conditions are virtually unheard of down there and they adapted to it rapidly, and kept up the friendly atmosphere that has been an earmark of this match from the first! That the match even finished at all is a miracle!! GREAT JOB!!! I don't think I would change a thing! If the weather hadn't intevined everyone would be typing far different stuff! As for SUPERSQUADS......I'll have the soup KURTM

[benny hill]

HEY, HEY, rigger, I won stage 10 & like it just fine, but if I had a problem then um, oh, yeh maybe.

[A lifer]

RiggerJJ

Our club has used regular flash targets out to 425 yards with great results, just have the spotting RO use binocs.

Wow I would have to dump my acog and get a 6x24!

Too Blinddd!!

Like Kurt said if the weather had been good we would be talking about other things.

Anyone who has ever run a match knows you can never make everyone happy! but 99% \

is not bad

PS Want to buy some cool falling plates??

Paul Caudill

SMM3G Match Director

Area 2 Desert Classic Match Director

[ccur]

QUOTE:

Don't give out awards for combined overall catagories, in fact, don't give out any combined overall awards. There is NO comparison when combining divisions. The overall high lady got a trophy, why? What about the high TACTICAL lady? Or high HEAVY METAL senior? The high catagories should be awarded by division, not overall.

I didn't win one, but sponsors like to see their shooters recognized...IE: high Tactical Lady, High Tactical Junior, etc....If you award only overall, Tactical will NEVER win anything...It is really hard to compete with Open pistols and their dots, and Open shotguns and their speedloaders! Surely it isn't so expensive to buy a couple of extra plaques? Just my $.02, but I'll bet there are a lot of people who feel the same way! As I recall this is the same way it is done at Area 2? I hope you go back to the format Dan Furbee used to do his awards as it is infinately more fair...

GREAT MATCH!! AWESOME RO'S!!! Stages were fun and testy!! Good Job... Thanks for all the hard work

Cheryl

[CraigS.]

Why does the scoring system use percentages ?

Why can't you just use the stage time to determine the rank?

Craig

[Bear1142]

Sorry it took so long to get to this and nothing I could say would really put into context the immense and wonderful job, under what could, at the very least, be described as probably the worst weather ever encountered at a major competititon. I would like to thank all of the RO's and staff at the 2006 SMM3G for going well above and beyond the call of duty. Your perserverance, dedication, and committment to excellence, prevented what could have easily been a disasterous match. Again, I humbly offer my thanks and a promise to pass along your monumental efforts to all who would listen in an effort to help sell-out the 2007 SMM3G in one day (provided I still get a slot )

Seriously, thank you all.

Erik Lund

[Paule]

Overall a good match, even with the weather YUCK! finally got use out of all the emergency towels and gloves I always carry around, though I will need to replace them as most are still in Mesa with some of the RO's who were out in the weather every minute on Saturday.

Comments:

1- If the Larue targets are unreliable, why not send them to Austin for repair? They have a lifetime warranty, I believe. (My wife and I shot them Friday (stage 5) and Saturday (stage 7) and they went down easily with 60gr v-Max's.) Mark Larue would be horrified if he knew his targets were not working correctly. He's very particular about his creations. He would probably paint them too, which would be nice for all the iron shooters!

2- Quite a few people quit on Saturday. Their choice. But some of them got to finish on Sunday and make up stages they chose not to shoot on Saturday. Not cool. Let them score time + penalties on the stages they bailed on, but no preferentials.

3- Since lightning does often strike twice in the same place (rain 2 of last 3 years?), consider more steel and less paper in the bays that have low areas in the back. Pasting all those targets on stage 9 while standing in 3-4 inches of water, while it was SNOWING!, was an experience I hope to never repeat.

4- Since there are obviously way more bicycling fans and participants than us shooters, might be easier to schedule a week either way from their annual race? We went to the range at 6:00 AM and there were hundreds of spectator cars already lining the road waiting to watch the race. would save the police escorts to the range, at least.

Looking forward to next year. Might be rain, but I'm betting no SNOW!

[Chuck Anderson]

Not sure who quit on Saturday and came back. I guess our squad quit when it was 5:45 and we had just finished our second stage. We could have maybe shot our next stage, 5, in the dark but we were told by match staff to go home. If there were individual competitors who didn't stay with their squad and got re shoots that would be different I think. On the other hand I saw some of the shooters from the early squads that were pretty clearly in the early stages of hypothermia. It's not worth risking your health for a game.

As for the RO's great again as usual. The match did a good job of getting through the weather issues. I also liked the stages this year. On the dark house though it might be a good idea to use the same rubber type backers as on the close targets. The shooters that went first on sunny days were at a disadvantage to the shooters who went last. If it was sunny all you had to do was look for the bright holes the tape couldn't conceal.

However, I did think that throwing out Stage 5 was a bad choice. We finished with 12 shooters left to go. By the time we packed up the truck and got over the prize area they had just announced that it was being cancelled. There couldn't have been more than ten shooters left to go. I then took a look at the stats and there were still working on completing the other stages. Another 45-60 minutes and the match would have been actually completed. As it was it took about that time anyway. The time was made up with the substantially lower number of trophies this year anyway. Seems like we got out about the same time we always do.

[kurtm]

Okay, It has been somewhat "officially" confirmed that indeed stage #7 results were never added to the iron sight shooters scores, so Kelly is right. We will just have to wait to see what shakes out of it, but I would like the match staff to know that things happen, and we as shooters understand that. It would have been nice to have a bit of time with the finals befor the prize table , but things were already late. I feel they did the best they could under the circumstances, but now is the time to at least come out with an official notice of some sort. I could now start a hate rant about the evils of computers ( which I detest), but I still think the SMM3G staff did the very best they could have given ALL the detriments they faced. KURTM

[scottmilk9]

What Cheryl said, Tactical shooters should get plaques too!!

[Boulderado]

I have to agree 100% with all of Rigger JJ's comments. I shoot with him at home and he tells it like it is. Flash targets do seem to be more reliable than the Larue's from my observations including this match.

I'd also like to add my kudos to the RO's and other Match Staff who were out there in the weather with the shooters on Saturday.

As a Super Senior who shoots Heavy Metal, JJ's and Cheryl's comments about category awards by division (Open, TS, TI, HM)really hits home with me. As a 60+ year old, I may not be able to whip Eric Lund in HM, but I can sure give other Super Seniors a run for their money. Let's go back to how it was in 2004/05 with catagory awards in ALL divisions!!

Kudos to fellow heavy Metal shooter Eric Lund for HOA!!! Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe this is the first time an HM shooter took HOA?

Hope to see every one at the Rocky Mountain 3 Gun in Raton, NM in August right after the DPMS TriGun and the USPSA 3 Gun Nat's !!

Best to all,

[D.Hayden]

Another 45-60 minutes and the match would have been actually completed.

I was in the onstage squad waiting, when the match was called. We had 10 shooters, and there were 3 RO's to shoot as well. At the time is was taking 8-10 minutes to shoot and then score/reset each shooter. I think it was called about 3:30 (we hadn't been called yet, so add walkthroughs, etc) , if we had gone ahead, we wouldn't have finished until at least 5:00 (if everything went perfectly), and probably closer to 5:30 or later.

The match was still fun. I didn't mind shooting in the rain or getting wet, the worst part was trying to tape targets in the rain. Tape them, then pull the plastic down, which pulled off more tape... repeat

[bigbrowndog]

i agree with what that okie weakhand loader said......everyone makes errors, considering everything that was going on, i think the STAFF, did an admirable job.

i definitely feel better knowing that i shot better, than in the past . it would have been nice to go to the prize table sooner than i did, but i'm not shooting this sport so i can go get an expensive prize, i could take my entry fee, hotel fee, gas fee, etc. and buy myself a nice prize.

i do think the corrected scores should be placed on the website, and the proper people congratulated for thier effort, i also would like to think that the staff is probably working on that as i type.

i will be back next year, provided i get in. and the staff will have my gratitude for all that they do, did, and have planned. trapr

[Ty Gentry]

Sorry so long to thank all the staff and ROs for all there hard work.

As everyone has said, you did a magnificent job.

Not only did you all get through the hardships, but is was all done with a absolutly possitive attitudue. For that we cannot thank you enough. I shot 9, 10, and 1 on saturday and not one RO or staff member made any derogatory comments on anything but the weather. The all kept a smile on their faces and a warmth in their hearts that helped all of us perservere. Not only that, they stayed in the wet all day while we had time to warm up or dry off between stages. You can't pay people to do what they did. I know, Iv'e tried.

Thank You

Thank You

Thank You

I will come back as long as you will let me.

Ty

[rmfield]

I want to add my thanks to the SMM3G Staff for all of the hard work. In spite of the terrible weather conditions on Saturday you stuck it out and made it happen. I can't thank you enough. I only hope that you come back next year!

I also want to thank all of my squad mates that persevered the conditions on Saturday and got us through all four of our scheduled stages. It was great shooting with you!

[SinistralRifleman]

Music Video"Bad Blood" by Ministry

www.cavalryarms.com/SMM3G/2006/SMM3G-2006-MVLR.wmv

[PacMan]

...I didn't mind shooting in the rain or getting wet, the worst part was trying to tape targets in the rain. Tape them, then pull the plastic down, which pulled off more tape... repeat

My sentiment exactly!!! What a pain in the derrier it was...cold wet fingers and non-sticking tape

...It might be helpful to consider eliminate the short range paper targets in the long and intermediate range rifle stages. The long range rifle stages can be just as difficult or more by effective use of terrain and/or shooting positions, and the resetting time would be eliminated. I also agree with JJ, we shoot regular flash targets at 400 yds and have no problem identifying hits without the use of binocular, just have a backup RO standing near to assist with the calls.

Million thanks to the RO on Stage 1, he safeguarded my shotgun overnight after I had a brain fart and left it there after our squad got done

[MP5_guy]

Make all of the stages equal in complexity if you are going to use the 100% rule for the stage winners. Stage 10 was a shotgun speed shoot where 1/2 a second made a great difference in your stage percentage. It shouldn't be equal in stage points to a complex 3gun stage (such as stage 7) that takes nearly 60 seconds for the stage winner to finish. Stage 10 should have been more complex. I guess what I am saying is these types of matches are no place for short speed shoots.

This is one of the things that I think needs fixing. I know some people advocate scores based on a percentage of the best time on a stage because it's more "fair" than time only. However, it creates the opposite effect than time-based scoring. That is, when doing percentage scoring, it generally favors those who can smoke a short stage and doesn't heavily penalize someone for not being a good long range shooter, whereas time-base scoring generally favors those who do well on long range CoF (if you exclude the super squad, of course, but they always screw up the curve... )

I'd suggest something along the lines of weighting the CoF. It could be something as arbitrary as the MD choosing a multiplier based on perceived difficulty of the stage, or based on something like the number of targets.

For example, at the recent SMM3G, stage 10 was probably the shortest CoF with 12 targets. Let's give it a weight of 1. IIRC, stage 3 had the largest number of targets with 8 shotgun, 17 rifle, and 5 pistol (for a total of 30). It would be weighted at 30 / 12 = 2.5. How do we use the weighting? Multiply the percentage by the weighting to get stage points. So, winner of stage 3 gets 250 points, winner of stage 10 gets 100 points.

Whadaya think?

[scottmilk9]

This is exactly why I think the whole match should be based on total time plus penalties. It would be much easier on stats people as well.

[Zak Smith]

Total time + pentalties for match scoring emphasizes stage to stage consistency much much more than either USPSA scoring OR IMGA-style stage points. Not arguing either way, just pointing it out

[Religious Shooter]

I like it the way it is.

With strict time + penalties if your gun malfs big time that's all she wrote. Without stage points the match becomes less a contest of skill and would place more of an emphasis on equipment reliability. The game becomes more about equipment and less about skill.

Also I like the emphasis on long guns (namely rifle). Most of us shoot enough pistol as it is with the pistol-only matches we attend.

My only desired change is to require more shotgun reloading (i.e. more shotgun targets).

[MP5_guy]

This is exactly why I think the whole match should be based on total time plus penalties. It would be much easier on stats people as well.

Actually, I agree it should be time + penalties, but there seems to be a large number of people that want it to be based on a percentage of the stage winner's score to de-emphasize the importance of long range shooting. My proposed scoring system would be a compromise, even if it is a headache for stats. Besides, that's what scoring programs are for.

[jwrig]

This is exactly why I think the whole match should be based on total time plus penalties. It would be much easier on stats people as well.

Actually, I agree it should be time + penalties, but there seems to be a large number of people that want it to be based on a percentage of the stage winner's score to de-emphasize the importance of long range shooting. My proposed scoring system would be a compromise, even if it is a headache for stats. Besides, that's what scoring programs are for.

Makes sense to me, MP5.

[Chuck Anderson]

The downside of Time+ scoring is it really de-emphasizes any short stages there. The difference on Stage 10 was only a few seconds. You could totally blow this stage and still score well with good long range performance. The percentage does a good job of weiging the stage skills evenly. If you do time + all the stages really need to be somewhat close in time otherwise you just end up biasing your scoring towards something else. Although admittedly, if you are, I certainly wouldn't mind it biased towards the long range rifle.

I hate to say it because I know it's a pain in the butt and SMM definitely wouldn't go to it, but Comstock really does a good job with this.