Developing a proper 9mm load.

[Jeffsbooks]

I need help developing an effective 9mm load.

 

Let me start with a simple question: in developing a load that feeds consistently, should I look first to OAL or the amount of powder I load (assuming the powder is fast-burning)?

[Zachjet]

OAL first then powder. 

[fbzero]

Agree, OAL, then powder.  Try to find one that feeds smoothly in all of the pistols you intend to shoot it in, then make sure that the OAL that feeds the best overall also plunks in all of them.  After that, move on to powder.

[4n2t0]

Determine the max OAL for your bullet/barrel(s) combo and select a medium to fast burning powder. Something between Titegroup on the fast end and CFE Pistol on the slow(er) end should do the trick. Can powders outside that range work? Absolutely, but for regular 9mm rounds, something in-between those two will work best. Resist the urge to start with the minimum charge. Most of the time it's a waste of powder because the charge is probably too light (weak ejection, possible stove-pipes, dirty etc.). Choose a starting charge weight that's smack-dab in the middle. e.g. If the charge weight window is 3.0gr to 4.0gr, I would start at ~3.5gr and work up in 0.2gr or 0.3gr increments. Test fire a small number of rounds and adjust as needed.

[Jeffsbooks]

Thank you all for the good advice. OAL is a mystery to me, but I think I am on the same page with you all. I load to 1.10"/28mm OAL. The shell and cartridge plunk, yet I still get cycle failures. I use Vihtavouri N330 with a charge midway for a 124 gr round, per Vihtavouri's chart.

 

Which leads me back to my question. only deeper into the weeds. Might ogive be an issue or, more likely, magazines that are overdue for cleaning? 

 

Thank you, Jeff

 

 

[xrayfk05]

It would help if you give as much info as possible, what gun(s) and most importantly what kind of cycle  failure are we talking about? Stove pipes, FTE, how often, etc.

 

 

[RangerTrace]

You picked the right powder.  Just load them with 4.7 grains to 1.125" and go shoot tiny groups!!

[mmc45414]

5 hours ago, Jeffsbooks said:

Might ogive be an issue or, more likely, magazines that are overdue for cleaning?

 

I would think that if the pistols runs factory ball ammo, and the failures lead you to believe the magazines might need to be cleaned, the charge is probably just too light, and the magazine is not being given enough time.

 

Sounds like this combo is proven: 

 

1 hour ago, RangerTrace said:

You picked the right powder.  Just load them with 4.7 grains to 1.125" and go shoot tiny groups!!

 

[4n2t0]

7 hours ago, Jeffsbooks said:

Thank you all for the good advice. OAL is a mystery to me, but I think I am on the same page with you all. I load to 1.10"/28mm OAL. The shell and cartridge plunk, yet I still get cycle failures. I use Vihtavouri N330 with a charge midway for a 124 gr round, per Vihtavouri's chart.

 

Which leads me back to my question. only deeper into the weeds. Might ogive be an issue or, more likely, magazines that are overdue for cleaning? 

 

Thank you, Jeff

What charge weight exactly? What bullet are you using? Unfortunately, RangerTrace's OAL won't help you. Listing random OAL's doesn't count for much since 124gr bullets, and the barrel(s) they'll be shot from, can differ greatly. e.g. I load a 124gr bullet that I use to 1.15, so which OAL is correct? The answer being the one that plunks and spins in your barrel(s). With that said, the charge weight he listed should be useful, if the bullet construction is similar (lead or FMJ?), since it gives you an idea of how much powder he's using to push a 124gr (lead or FMJ?) bullet.

Edited July 15 by 4n2t0

[shred]

8 hours ago, Jeffsbooks said:

 The shell and cartridge plunk, yet I still get cycle failures. 

What's a "cycle failure"?  Could be a lot of things with wildly different causes.

 

[HOGRIDER]

15 hours ago, Jeffsbooks said:

Thank you all for the good advice. OAL is a mystery to me, but I think I am on the same page with you all. I load to 1.10"/28mm OAL. The shell and cartridge plunk, yet I still get cycle failures. I use Vihtavouri N330 with a charge midway for a 124 gr round, per Vihtavouri's chart.

 

Which leads me back to my question. only deeper into the weeds. Might ogive be an issue or, more likely, magazines that are overdue for cleaning? 

 

Thank you, Jeff

 

 

Like others have posted, you need to give as much detailed info as possible concerning pistol used, exact bullet specs, etc!  What weight recoil spring is currently be used in your pistol?

 

If determining YOUR correct OAL is truly a mystery, this article will definitely help:

 

https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=103620.0

 

Had a Sig P320 MAXX with aftermarket KKM barrel, and it liked the 124g PD JHP bullets doing ~138-139 PF.  This was with an OAL of 1.080" using 4.7g N330!

 

IMO, if your experiencing "cycle failures" and your pistol is sprung correctly, you may need to increase your powder charge of N330 just a bit.  If your using a 124g JHP or FMJ quality bullet, take a look at the VV tables for 125g bullets using a 1.102" OAL.  You'll notice load ranges going up to and above 5.0g using N330.k

 

HTHs............  

 

 

[Jeffsbooks]

Thank you. These are smart and generous replies. I'm grateful. 

 

Here's my plan. I'm going to start with a plunk test: a round that drops in the barrel and sits level with the feed ramp and spins easily around in the chamber. That will be my baseline, and from there, I will go up and down the ladder, starting with the charge.

 

I'm so confused about handloading because I sold my Sig 229 9mm, which I purchased in 2002, and purchased a Canik Rival based on the raves I read about it. The plan was to move from defense to bullseye target. 

 

Now that I've had the Canik for a while, I don't feel the same rosey love many owners have expressed for the pistol. I've changed out the Canik's spring set, but it still has a crunchy trigger (far less so now with the new springs). 

 

The jury remains out on the Canik because I blame its inconsistencies on myself. The pistol is pretty reliable with Winchester ammo, but my target loads with 124 gr Precision Delta and 124 gr PD V2 bullets are not reliable. Sometimes, the rounds balk as they cycle, causing me to rack the slide from shot to shot. Sometimes, I get stovepiping. And sometimes, I get consistency. That's real inconsistency.

 

So, back to the workshop. The aim is accuracy, but first I like to think I have control over my gun.   

 

Jeff

[ddc]

Another parameter to be aware of is your recoil spring weight.

Without knowing exactly what "cycle failure" you are referring to I'm wondering if your load may be a bit too light for your recoil spring. Especially if you have a light load and a factory recoil spring.

I am not familiar with that gun... can you easily try/test other recoil springs with your setup?

[xjwalt666]

On 7/16/2024 at 2:04 AM, Jeffsbooks said:

Thank you. These are smart and generous replies. I'm grateful. 

 

Here's my plan. I'm going to start with a plunk test: a round that drops in the barrel and sits level with the feed ramp and spins easily around in the chamber. That will be my baseline, and from there, I will go up and down the ladder, starting with the charge.

 

I'm so confused about handloading because I sold my Sig 229 9mm, which I purchased in 2002, and purchased a Canik Rival based on the raves I read about it. The plan was to move from defense to bullseye target. 

 

Now that I've had the Canik for a while, I don't feel the same rosey love many owners have expressed for the pistol. I've changed out the Canik's spring set, but it still has a crunchy trigger (far less so now with the new springs). 

 

The jury remains out on the Canik because I blame its inconsistencies on myself. The pistol is pretty reliable with Winchester ammo, but my target loads with 124 gr Precision Delta and 124 gr PD V2 bullets are not reliable. Sometimes, the rounds balk as they cycle, causing me to rack the slide from shot to shot. Sometimes, I get stovepiping. And sometimes, I get consistency. That's real inconsistency.

 

So, back to the workshop. The aim is accuracy, but first I like to think I have control over my gun.   

 

Jeff

This makes me feel like the charge isn't high enough. Seems like you're having ejection failures and not picking up the next round due to lack of power. Either that or your recoil spring is too heavy and the slide is moving too fast to come back enough for a full ejection and pick the next round up from the mag.  

[HOGRIDER]

On 7/16/2024 at 2:04 AM, Jeffsbooks said:

I'm so confused about handloading because I sold my Sig 229 9mm, which I purchased in 2002, and purchased a Canik Rival based on the raves I read about it. The plan was to move from defense to bullseye target. 

 

Now that I've had the Canik for a while, I don't feel the same rosey love many owners have expressed for the pistol. I've changed out the Canik's spring set, but it still has a crunchy trigger (far less so now with the new springs). 

@Jeffsbooks

Have a good friend that was having multiple FTFs and FTEs with a new Rival using his regular reloads.  I gave him about 40 of my MAXX match reloads which used 4.7g N330 behind the PD 124 JHP V1s, and it performed flawlessly.  These loads were in the ~138PF range.  Bottom line the Canik was way over-sprung with regards to the recoil spring.  IMO, it was sprung for factory NATO 124g ammo.

 

And if I fully understand your desire to shoot "bullseye target" type competition, I don't think you'll find too many Caniks or any striker fired pistols being used by serious Bullseye competitors.........

 

You'll find plenty of feedback on the Canik in this section of the Forum:

 

https://forums.brianenos.com/forum/208-canik/

 

Edited July 17 by HOGRIDER
sp

[zzt]

@Jeffsbooks judging by your last post, I have a few comments.  First, my bullseye shooting buddies tell me you have to drive 9mm fast to get acceptable bullseye accuracy.  Second, most bullseye shooters load long.  Many want the bullet to be engraved by the rifling.  Usually that is with lead bullets.  Personally, I wouldn't try that with jacketed.  Third, you will never be a good bullseye shooter with a crappy trigger.

 

Develop your bullseye load first.  PD V2 bullets are great, but short.  That limits how long you can load them and still have enough bullet in the case for good grip.  Too little and you risk bullet setback while feeding.  Not a good scenario when you are loading near max.  Go to a lighter recoil spring.  Buy a range of weights.  Try them and use the one that allows the ejected case to fall 3' away.

 

For centerfire, your trigger pull must be at least 2.5 lb.  Smooth yours out and set it to 2.5+.  Then learn to take up the slack until you hit the wall.  Keep pulling to take up most of the creep.  When you can do that consistently, all that is left is a slight movement of the trigger before the shot breaks.  Double action revolver shooters do this routinely, so it isn't hard to learn.

 

If you are serious about bullseye shooting, buy yourself a good 1911 45.  Tune it and shoot it for both the centerfire and 45 legs.  You can buy a good 22 conversion and shoot the same receiver for all three legs.  There is ample time to switch uppers after the 22 leg, or even during the 15 minute rest period before the centerfire leg.  I know several who do exactly that.  Same 3.5+ lb. trigger for everything.  Others, me included, prefer two guns.  One permanently wears the 22 conversion.  The trigger is set to 2+ lbs.  The other wears the 45 slide with a 3.5+ lb. trigger.  

[IVC]

On 7/14/2024 at 11:41 PM, Jeffsbooks said:

Which leads me back to my question. only deeper into the weeds. Might ogive be an issue or, more likely, magazines that are overdue for cleaning? 

 

 

Ogive (loosely speaking) is the only "issue" with your plunk test. More precisely, the shape of the bullet defines where the contact with the rifling will occur (it's before ogive, but close...ish). This is why your OAL/plunk test is bullet-specific. A "fat bullet" will force shorter OAL because the part that can protrude into barrel without touching rifling will be short (which makes the bullet "fat" and short). 

 

When it comes to feeding, the shape of the bullet and OAL are the two main parameters. It's the interaction of bullet and feed ramp that will cause issues depending on the angle and speed of engagement. Most issues happen when bullet touches the feed ramp. Some of the issues are overcome by the recoil spring, some will cause a malfunction. In addition, magazine lips will control the initial angle of the top round and magazine size relative to the round OAL might allow for some "floating" that can subtly change angles. 

 

Sort out feeding based on the geometry of your system before playing with loads. If the geometry is right, you'll counter issues with various loads with different recoil springs. If the geometry doesn't work, you'll be patching a solution that will never work quite right. 

[Phil_TN]

On 7/15/2024 at 6:43 PM, HOGRIDER said:

Like others have posted, you need to give as much detailed info as possible concerning pistol used, exact bullet specs, etc!  What weight recoil spring is currently be used in your pistol?

 

If determining YOUR correct OAL is truly a mystery, this article will definitely help:

 

https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=103620.0

 

Had a Sig P320 MAXX with aftermarket KKM barrel, and it liked the 124g PD JHP bullets doing ~138-139 PF.  This was with an OAL of 1.080" using 4.7g N330!

 

IMO, if your experiencing "cycle failures" and your pistol is sprung correctly, you may need to increase your powder charge of N330 just a bit.  If your using a 124g JHP or FMJ quality bullet, take a look at the VV tables for 125g bullets using a 1.102" OAL.  You'll notice load ranges going up to and above 5.0g using N330.k

 

HTHs............  

 

 

Thanks for the N330 info.

 

I’ve been using N320 and just fitted a KKM barrel to my primary P320 and was looking for recipes using the PD 124 JHP V2. I’d seen a post by Darrell that had me looking at 4.8-5.0 gr at 1.080”, thanks for the confirmation.