Meeting Agenda

[shred]

The counter-argument is those people already shoot Revo, so if you want more shooters in Revo, shouldn't you ask the people that aren't shooting it?   This BoD loves growth.  They need it.

[pskys2]

11 minutes ago, shred said:

The counter-argument is those people already shoot Revo, so if you want more shooters in Revo, shouldn't you ask the people that aren't shooting it?   This BoD loves growth.  They need it.

Very well said.

[IVC]

2 hours ago, shred said:

The counter-argument is those people already shoot Revo, so if you want more shooters in Revo, shouldn't you ask the people that aren't shooting it?   This BoD loves growth.  They need it.

The growth won't come from Revo no matter what. It's about offering options.

[Carmoney]

On 1/25/2024 at 9:12 AM, Ice36 said:

I don't see mixing irons and red dots as equals is good at all, this would have effect on classification as high hit factors would change . . . 

 

A good revolver shooter with decent eyes would run most of the more popular USPSA classifier stages faster with iron sights than with a dot. 

[Joe4d]

7 hours ago, Carmoney said:

 

A good revolver shooter with decent eyes would run most of the more popular USPSA classifier stages faster with iron sights than with a dot. 

Pretty much,, as I said in this or one of the other revolver dot threads.. For USPSA it straight up doesnt matter any more than a external single action is some huge advantage over an internal..
Playing USPSA with a revolver will come down to movement, stage plan and reloading ,, Not the dot..
Simply not a big enough accuracy advantage, and the shooting is not hard enough, to make up for differences in reloading speed.
I say allow them, ports add on comps, what have ya.. There will be little to no advantage , other than peoples perceptions.. Just like this CO/LO foolishness.

[testosterone]

8 hours ago, Carmoney said:

 

A good revolver shooter with decent eyes would run most of the more popular USPSA classifier stages faster with iron sights than with a dot. 

Nah.

Im sure someone(jay) could go pull the co vs prod scores with his magic data mining scripts, and my bet is co hit factors will be universally higher.

 

I am positive mwp has data for himself and will be in agreement for you, but mike is the limit case, he is not merely good.

 

On match day when the score matters, over a season, the dot will be better(on classifiers) for a good shooter.

[Racinready300ex]

 

So were saying if the current number 1 revolver guy went to a dot, he'd actually be easier to beat then if he stayed on irons? Seems like a stretch to me. 

 

So if irons are better, why did LO beat out Limited at nationals? Not only did they have inferior sighting system they also were score minor. 

 

Or is it possible the optic is enough to overcome major scoring and still win by 5%. 

 

 

[Fishbreath]

1 hour ago, testosterone said:

On match day when the score matters, over a season, the dot will be better(on classifiers) for a good shooter.

 

100%.

 

Even in dry fire on close targets, which is about the most ideal case for irons, I'm still a little faster with a dot. The advantage only goes up from there.

[MikeyScuba]

I've shot several ICORE matches in '23 with both irons and dot.  Average was 5 seconds quicker with a dot.  And the more steel there is, the more the advantage goes to the red dot.

[testosterone]

3 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Playing USPSA with a revolver will come down to movement, stage plan and reloading ,, Not the dot..
Simply not a big enough accuracy advantage, and the shooting is not hard enough, to make up for differences in reloading speed.

The holes in the targets matter, shooting a dot is faster and more accurate.  This is the case and it definitely matters.

 

Everything matters when the difference between 1st and 2nd is 1% of the available match points.

 

[pskys2]

IMHO there are three types who benefit the most from dots. 

1st those who never became comfortable with iron sights.

2nd those who are willing/able to put extensive practice into dots and get comfortable with them.

3rd the time survivors who struggle with iron sight focus.

A 4th group MUST adopt dots, those in the top few percentage competitors.  If for no other reason than the mental aspect of NOT giving up any points.

Some have natural talent, or are comfortable with irons, and don't have time/wilingess to adapt to a dot, and I doubt if they would be harmed by staying with irons.

The question is what would help or hurt our beloved sport?

[Joe4d]

3 hours ago, MikeyScuba said:

I've shot several ICORE matches in '23 with both irons and dot.  Average was 5 seconds quicker with a dot.  And the more steel there is, the more the advantage goes to the red dot.

discussion is about USPSA not ICORE,,,  Basically a C zone hit in USPSA only adds 1/10th of a second to your score,, in Icore a B ( basically like a C USPSA) adds a second..  And often a hit on a target about like the A zone head, actually is a negative 1 second...  Like night and day between the two games 

your 5 seconds quicker in Icore,, would only equate to about half a second in USPSA..   Not to mention Icore stages tend to have less movement and reloads than a USPSA stage.
Not saying a dot isnt any advantage,, saying its not a statistically significant advantage.. Compared to other things going on.

USPSA revolver is a reloading contest.. Not a shooting contest. 
Only problem with allowing dots will be peoples perceptions. 

[testosterone]

6 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

discussion is about USPSA not ICORE,,,  Basically a C zone hit in USPSA only adds 1/10th of a second to your score,, in Icore a B ( basically like a C USPSA) adds a second..  And often a hit on a target about like the A zone head, actually is a negative 1 second...  Like night and day between the two games 

your 5 seconds quicker in Icore,, would only equate to about half a second in USPSA..   Not to mention Icore stages tend to have less movement and reloads than a USPSA stage.
Not saying a dot isnt any advantage,, saying its not a statistically significant advantage.. Compared to other things going on.

USPSA revolver is a reloading contest.. Not a shooting contest. 
Only problem with allowing dots will be peoples perceptions. 

 

Nah.  

 

The 5 best revolver shooters are basically doing on the clock 2 sec reloads across the match, it is definitely not the deciding factor.  Maybe they bang out a few magic 1.50's, but they are not all magic.

 

100% if optics are optional every single person in contention will be shooting a red dot.

 

[MikeyScuba]

2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

discussion is about USPSA not ICORE,,,  Basically a C zone hit in USPSA only adds 1/10th of a second to your score,, in Icore a B ( basically like a C USPSA) adds a second..  And often a hit on a target about like the A zone head, actually is a negative 1 second...  Like night and day between the two games 

your 5 seconds quicker in Icore,, would only equate to about half a second in USPSA..   Not to mention Icore stages tend to have less movement and reloads than a USPSA stage.
Not saying a dot isnt any advantage,, saying its not a statistically significant advantage.. Compared to other things going on.

USPSA revolver is a reloading contest.. Not a shooting contest. 
Only problem with allowing dots will be peoples perceptions. 

Given we only have 8 shots and are shooting minor I beg to differ.  Yes you cam  go a little faster but at the top it’s usually who gets more Alpha’s wins the match.

 

and my point was I’ve done my own head to head comparison with both guns.  Yes it was icore. I doubt anyone has or can in USPSA 

[testosterone]

1 hour ago, MikeyScuba said:

Given we only have 8 shots and are shooting minor I beg to differ.  Yes you cam  go a little faster but at the top it’s usually who gets more Alpha’s wins the match.

 

and my point was I’ve done my own head to head comparison with both guns.  Yes it was icore. I doubt anyone has or can in USPSA 

 

Usually but not always.  At last uspsa nationals mwp outclassed the field on total time wildly, 2nd place was +30 seconds slower with 20+ more alphas.

 

This is fairly unusual but demonstrative that you can win with less(way less) alphas if you are insanely fast (compared to everyone else that day).

 

[Makicjf]

3 hours ago, MikeyScuba said:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 30 by Makicjf

[Carmoney]

First off, classifier scores are a pretty poor indicator of match performance--I think we all know that.  Revolver went through an inflationary phase a few years ago where too many paper GMs were made.

 

I'm sure I can find classifier stages where a dot would be an advantage.  And they would tend to be the more elaborate stages with longer shots--you know, the kind most clubs are too lazy to set up!  We tend to shoot the closer, easier, higher HF stages where a dot has little or no advantage (or maybe creates a slight disadvantage), don't we?  How many times have we all shot "Can You Count?" for chrissakes?

 

Moreover--classifications are not meaningful in a division where we only have a few people at any given match.  We are a heads-up division, now more than ever.  Nobody's getting a trophy or prize for Top A or High C or whatever.  

 

So who cares?  I know right where I stand, and if you've been doing this a while, so do you.

 

[pskys2]

53 minutes ago, Carmoney said:

First off, classifier scores are a pretty poor indicator of match performance--I think we all know that.  Revolver went through an inflationary phase a few years ago where too many paper GMs were made.

 

I'm sure I can find classifier stages where a dot would be an advantage.  And they would tend to be the more elaborate stages with longer shots--you know, the kind most clubs are too lazy to set up!  We tend to shoot the closer, easier, higher HF stages where a dot has little or no advantage (or maybe creates a slight disadvantage), don't we?  How many times have we all shot "Can You Count?" for chrissakes?

 

Moreover--classifications are not meaningful in a division where we only have a few people at any given match.  We are a heads-up division, now more than ever.  Nobody's getting a trophy or prize for Top A or High C or whatever.  

 

So who cares?  I know right where I stand, and if you've been doing this a while, so do you.

 

Ooh I'd love to shoot can you count with my dot revolver, will set it up at next years icore match then translate it to hf.

Reason why is im curious if I just shoot it with the target in the window can I go faster?  In December at our uspsa match we had a revolver category and I shot with a dot sighted revolver.  There were several stages with close targets that I never saw the dot.  And was surprised that I got decent hits.

Of course I didn't win revolver category, Darren did.

[MWP]

8 hours ago, Joe4d said:

discussion is about USPSA not ICORE,,,  Basically a C zone hit in USPSA only adds 1/10th of a second to your score,, in Icore a B ( basically like a C USPSA) adds a second..  And often a hit on a target about like the A zone head, actually is a negative 1 second...  Like night and day between the two games 

your 5 seconds quicker in Icore,, would only equate to about half a second in USPSA..   Not to mention Icore stages tend to have less movement and reloads than a USPSA stage.
Not saying a dot isnt any advantage,, saying its not a statistically significant advantage.. Compared to other things going on.

USPSA revolver is a reloading contest.. Not a shooting contest. 
Only problem with allowing dots will be peoples perceptions. 

Literally everything in this post is wrong.

I’m sorry but it’s all wrong.

 

A C zone hit is worth 1/10th of a second shooting revolver minor on a 20hf stage. Please show me a match result where a revolver shot a 20hf. Ever. 
For reference that’s a Bill Drill clean in 1.5. 
 

Mikes example of 5 seconds quicker in icore is EXTREMELY relevant- as it’s one of the only match examples where people can shoot the same match back to back with similar outcomes in field courses with a dot and iron revolver. 

 

I’m not sure where you shoot icore. I’m not sure you’ll see much a difference in todays icore and todays uspsa in terms of distance covered on a stage. In fact most of them are the exact same at a given club because it’s efficient. I still haven’t run a full set of regulation baseball bases in uspsa. I’ve never gone to my 6th moonclip on a uspsa stage, and I carry 11 for a reason- it’s not for uspsa. 
 

Revolver is a reloading contest. It’s also a moving contest, a problem solving contest, a math contest, a drawing contest and most importantly- a shooting contest.
 

Sean correctly pointed out that the USPSA winner’s time was significantly faster this year than the field, and over 20 alphas different. In that match that equated to roughly 2.3% of the total points available in the match, in exchange for going 8% faster in total time. That difference in time didn’t come from reloading, as the majority are now on the move. The 2nd place finisher in that match shot the most As in the match in exchange for all that time, but guess who shot the second most- the winner.
 

A dot is a huge statistical advantage. There’s literally no larger advantage in practical shooting than the ability to not refocus your eyes between targets and sights and always call your shots no matter where your focus is. 
 

And I’m happy to debate that with anyone. But please don’t bring bad math and opinion. Go look at the data. It’s all available for free.

Tell me how many people you have seen at matches, in the last decade, shoot open nationals without a dot? You’ll be able to count them on one hand, because the answer is 1.
 

Tell me which USPSA nationals, IRC, Steel Challenge, WRC, or IPSC WS was won without a dot when the option was presented. 0. Not 1. In over 30 years since the dot was made usable. 
 

The number, is 5-10%. That’s the gap dot to irons. There will always be outliers, but that’s the number. 
 

Putting a dot on a revolver in USPSA is akin to putting a sequential gearbox in a Miata. And all this coming from the person who most likely stands the most to gain from this division getting a dot…

[Joe4d]

revolvers arnt automatics... Do the math,, I have, a point in USPSA is worth about 1/10th of a second,, on a typical stage.. ( granted thats major PF)  10 targets, 20 A's shots.. say 15 seconds.. hf 6.66...    AC every target in 14 seconds,, and you are at 6.4 hf.  Like I said, basically 1/10 a second per point.

Same with relaods,, alot of auto stages will have no reloads, but the rest almost never more than one,, difference between worst and best is probably a second or so..
Revolver reloads are slower,  the difference is greater, PLUS you are doing 2 -4 of them every stage..

USPSA is a serious time weighted game.. Speed with OK hits will win the day..
Run a stage 2 seconds faster with 90% of points and you are winning that stage. 
DO that in ICORE and you are losing.
The dot edge in revolver will be much less than for autos.  I imagine though, BOD, will probably allow it, most of the better shooters will move to them, so probably never get a true comparison. 
Then you add in picking up the dot a bit more often,,
SOrry there is no way anyone will convince me a dot on a revolver in USPSA is gonna make that much of a difference in the score. 
 

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

revolvers arnt automatics... Do the math,, I have, a point in USPSA is worth about 1/10th of a second,, 

Revolvers are slow, so their hit factors are lower. You used the example of a 10 HF major scoring stage to get 1/10 of second per Charlie. How often do revolver shooters shoot a 10 HF?? Almost never is probably the answer. If the revo winner has a HHF of 4 one Charlie is worth .5 seconds not .1 seconds. At revolver nationals there were several stages with HHF's under 4. 

 

Lower hit factors shift the balance making accuracy more important. . As points matter more the gun that's easier to aim fast will become more of a advantage. Typically lower HF stages also have more difficult shots which will shift the balance even more so toward the guy with the optic. 

 

Nationals will probably have harder and longer shots with lots of partials and lower HHF's given the current trends. It would be silly for someone like @Fishbreath to go to nationals with out a optic if they're allowed. So to allow them is to require them. 

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

revolvers arnt automatics... Do the math,, I have, a point in USPSA is worth about 1/10th of a second,, on a typical stage.. ( granted thats major PF)  10 targets, 20 A's shots.. say 15 seconds.. hf 6.66...    AC every target in 14 seconds,, and you are at 6.4 hf.  Like I said, basically 1/10 a second per point.

 

 

Playing with your math some. 100 pts in 15 seconds is 6.66 HF as you stated. 

 

No one shoots major in revo so we should look at minor numbers. So A/c on all 20 shots is 80 points. 

 

80/6.66 = 12.01 (time to shoot same HF with 80 points)

 

15 - 12.01 = 2.98 seconds (total time you need to save)

 

2.98/10 = .298 seconds per Charlie.

 

Did I math this wrong?

[shred]

FWIW, When CO was Production-with-a-dot and thus 10-rounds-Minor, the dot was a noticeable advantage overall.  Not so much on close paper, but a few mini poppers at 20 yards and things change.

 

 

 

[testosterone]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

10 targets, 20 A's shots.. say 15 seconds.. hf 6.66...    AC every target in 14 seconds,, and you are at 6.4 hf.  Like I said, basically 1/10 a second per point.

 

so if i shoot better points slightly slower, I win.  got it.

 

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

Run a stage 2 seconds faster with 90% of points and you are winning that stage. 

 

when the HHF is lowish, maybe 6, somewhere around there, this does not hold, which at match like nationals is going to be more than half the match.  

 

At last nats, the winner went full ricky bobby speed to pull the win and he still had the 2nd most alphas. 

 

2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

The dot edge in revolver will be much less than for autos.

 

5-10% advantage.    Its not way less than for autos, its probably exactly the same.

2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

no way anyone will convince me

 

that's for sure    cheers!

[MikeyScuba]

Some more data (if anyone cares)

 

I did 2 outlaw falling steel matches with both ISR and OSR.

 

Times were 161 OSR, 209 SR and 144 OSR and 185SR

 

The first scores were more of a spread due to having a canopy overhead and dark fall clouds with rain.  Shooting irons wasn't fun and I should have just shot one of my other dots guns as I was shooting over a few days. 

 

The US border guard didn't bat an eye when I declared we had 6 guns in the truck.