Meeting Agenda

[pskys2]

Ok the USPSA Board did not make any motions on revolvers.  They referred it to Russel Fourtney? Area 8 Director and chairman of the Rules Committee.  That is where the process will begin.  The subject was to allow Optics in Revolver Division.  

As several have notable skilled Revolver Competitors have stated they believe this would force them to use a Dot.  As a general rule, and with the current trends in course design, they are correct.  Competitors will give up some points for not having a Dot.  But it's also not a given several of the Classifier HHF's show a benefit for  Iron Sights.  Things like close targets negate the advantages, SH/WH can also negate a Dots advantage (only at closer ranges though).

So it is going to be put to the Rules Committee with a survey that will include questions such as 1) if you shoot Revolver Division, 2) possibly what your class is, 3) what are your main Divisions, 4) would this entice you to shoot Revolver, 5) would it cause you to leave Revolver Division....

The Board did not show a negative, or even indifferent, reaction.  

Two suggestions 1) contact the Area 8 Director, President, your Area Director (Area 3 shooters send it to the President) about this subject and express your thoughts, 2) I am going to create a new Thread with a Poll and we can all vote and express our thoughts.  The Board will be aware of our poll and it may help them make a decision.

[Toolguy]

For me, it was the snarky, superior attitude and sometimes open hostility of the auto shooters towards revolver shooters that made me give up on USPSA. I have limited free time and resources, and chose not to spend them in that toxic environment. There are plenty of other handgun games that are not like that. I shoot a revo in several different events where everyone has a good time, regardless of what gun they shoot.

[pskys2]

3 hours ago, Toolguy said:

For me, it was the snarky, superior attitude and sometimes open hostility of the auto shooters towards revolver shooters that made me give up on USPSA. I have limited free time and resources, and chose not to spend them in that toxic environment. There are plenty of other handgun games that are not like that. I shoot a revo in several different events where everyone has a good time, regardless of what gun they shoot.

I can't argue against Toolguy's perception, Except that when you find USPSA Revolver competitors it's worth the effort.  And Toolguy you're very fortunate to have a local club with a pretty solid group of USPSA Revolver competitors.  And I'd argue that outside of me, all of the others even those who shoot Revolvers with us only occasionally, are some of the best to be around.  The other's I just ignore, there are those kind in every group.

[Joe4d]

On 1/25/2024 at 11:12 AM, Makicjf said:

CO/LO. Just write in the rules “revolvers can mount dot to frame

  @MWP

This is the easiest solution to finding a place for dotted Revo 's.  Would you add an (R) category, or run heads up?

Jason

Why ? You can already run a dotted revolver in Open.. and you would be just as non competitive in CO/LO as you would be in Open.. So really not any point.

Edited January 26 by Joe4d

[Makicjf]

20 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Why ? You can already run a dotted revolver in Open.. and you would be just as non competitive in CO/LO as you would be in Open.. So really not any point.

You are correct; that's why I asked if an (R) category would make sense.  The same could be done in open.

  Co/LO are both minor non-compensator divisions, so more "similar" ( a relative term for certain) to existing Revo than open.

 I actually shoot dotted Revo in open fairly often.  It's a blast, literally, as I'll run major pf as well!

Jason

[Toolguy]

57 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

I can't argue against Toolguy's perception, Except that when you find USPSA Revolver competitors it's worth the effort.  And Toolguy you're very fortunate to have a local club with a pretty solid group of USPSA Revolver competitors.  And I'd argue that outside of me, all of the others even those who shoot Revolvers with us only occasionally, are some of the best to be around.  The other's I just ignore, there are those kind in every group.

Yes, we have a great bunch of revo guys and gals here, now. But nationwide, most revo shooters aren't so lucky. If there are only one or two revo people in a USPSA club, it's pretty hard to ignore the other 20 or 30 that are giving you grief. I think this may be a factor in the low participation rate that never gets talked about. I moved on to other matches, perhaps many others have, too, I don't really know.

[warpspeed]

On 1/25/2024 at 7:49 AM, Fishbreath said:

 

The embedded assertion here is that lots of divisions is a problem, and I haven't yet heard a convincing argument as to why.

 

You must be new.  

[Fishbreath]

13 minutes ago, warpspeed said:

You must be new.  

 

To clarify: I've heard a lot of arguments as to why. None of them are convincing.

[Toolguy]

Fishbreath is a seasoned competitor who knows which end is up.

[pskys2]

Note there was no discussion about removing any division.

The comments by area 8 was that he had been approached by members who would like to be able to shoot optics in revolver division.

The inference was it would help old eyes.

My guess is this is a byproduct of the increasing popularity of optics on all types of handguns.

[warpspeed]

As long as it's understood that the shooting world views those who shoot revolvers as a group that can never be happy and comprise a seriously small group that doesn't have any leverage, then it's all good.

 

  

[Toolguy]

Thanks for proving my point.

[pskys2]

9 hours ago, warpspeed said:

As long as it's understood that the shooting world views those who shoot revolvers as a group that can never be happy and comprise a seriously small group that doesn't have any leverage, then it's all good.

 

  

Unfortunately for your narrative the revolver world is happy, discussions don't equate to unhappy.  We are small and I think that's good.  Keeps the agitators busy elsewhere.

[shred]

Revo shooter: Complains about disrespect.  Calls semi-autos "bottom feeders".

 

I've never seen outright hostility.  There's plenty of ribbing back and forth, but most auto shooters secretly know they could never do that well with a revo.

 

 

[Ice36]

The best part of Revo shooters is they like their guns share their info and come out to play the game and really give two cents about others think about it. 

[testosterone]

On 1/20/2024 at 9:48 PM, Carmoney said:

I suspect the BOD is discussing rule changes to Revolver Division without seeking any input whatsoever from those of us who actually participate in that division.  

Can anybody prove me wrong?  MWP, did anybody talk to you about this?  

A8 dave fourtnoy said in the meeting he had been ad hoc polling people at matches and everyone he asked said yes.

He might have asked 1 guy or 50, who knows...

[shred]

On the call they wanted to know if they could just poll people with revo classifiers on file and IT said yes, but then somebody said "but we might want to ask non-revo shooters too because then they might shoot it if they could have a dot".   So, I read it as they're going to ask everyone and maybe will sort the results.  My guess is they won't get a whole lot of responses anyway.

[pskys2]

1 hour ago, shred said:

Revo shooter: Complains about disrespect.  Calls semi-autos "bottom feeders".

 

I've never seen outright hostility.  There's plenty of ribbing back and forth, but most auto shooters secretly know they could never do that well with a revo.

 

 

Guilty as charged, but i sat it with a smile.

[pskys2]

22 minutes ago, shred said:

On the call they wanted to know if they could just poll people with revo classifiers on file and IT said yes, but then somebody said "but we might want to ask non-revo shooters too because then they might shoot it if they could have a dot".   So, I read it as they're going to ask everyone and maybe will sort the results.  My guess is they won't get a whole lot of responses anyway.

On another thread I started a poll, and am surprised by the numbers. Just a few years ago I did another and this latest one already has close to 3x the response.

[testosterone]

On 1/25/2024 at 12:26 PM, MWP said:

Watered down competition. You’ve shot the IRC- you know what’s happening there. There’s a race in maybe 1 division, usually by people who can’t seriously race in another. We can almost always mail the trophies to the division winners using the sign up sheet a week out. Not very fun. 
 

I’m down for 30 uspsa divisions as long as they’re all at their own nationals. But that’s not the case. 

Yep, i dont see how this is fixable though.  Pond is just to small.   To make irc interesting it needs to be something that everyone would want besides another title like 10k for the open division (only) win or something, thats the only way its going to be all the contenders going for it.

 

[testosterone]

On 1/25/2024 at 10:49 AM, Fishbreath said:

 

The embedded assertion here is that lots of divisions is a problem, and I haven't yet heard a convincing argument as to why.

As long as there is a national title to be had, and a dedicated nationals for those chasing it, you are right.   When foley made revolver nats a standalone match, it got 116 i think.  The previous year, when revolver was with open nationals, it had 17, which is about where it is now i think.

 

See mikes argument around irc.   It fits here, guys just go where to least competition is to secure a win.   If you give the division its own Nationals, you will get guys coming out of woodwork that you would never expect.

[pskys2]

7 minutes ago, testosterone said:

As long as there is a national title to be had, and a dedicated nationals for those chasing it, you are right.   When foley made revolver nats a standalone match, it got 116 i think.  The previous year, when revolver was with open nationals, it had 17, which is about where it is now i think.

 

See mikes argument around irc.   It fits here, guys just go where to least competition is to secure a win.   If you give the division its own Nationals, you will get guys coming out of woodwork that you would never expect.

When the USPSA Revolver Nationals was a stand alone it had around 100 competitors and it was after the Single Stack Nationals which was several days and almost 400 competitors.  But yes if done correctly it can be upped, as a curious note I wonder how it would be received today if a club repeated that pattern?  

The Memphis Charity Challenge matched those National numbers and had NO semi-automatic Divisions preceding it, wonder if that could be re-created?

The IRC at one time was HUGELY popular, but they had a prize table that was out of this world heavy.  I desperately wanted to attend but could never justify going all of the way to California for it.  And once it moved out of there it seemed the prize table dropped and then attendance.

 

[warpspeed]

4 hours ago, Toolguy said:

Thanks for proving my point.

 

You're welcome ?

 

2 hours ago, pskys2 said:

Unfortunately for your narrative the revolver world is happy, discussions don't equate to unhappy.  We are small and I think that's good.  Keeps the agitators busy elsewhere.

 

It's not my narrative - just my observation. I've shot revolvers in both USPSA & IDPA.  I have no distain for them or those who shoot them I just don't live in a delusional world where they are viewed as equal. 

 

2 hours ago, shred said:

Revo shooter: Complains about disrespect.  Calls semi-autos "bottom feeders".

 

I've never seen outright hostility.  There's plenty of ribbing back and forth, but most auto shooters secretly know they could never do that well with a revo.

 

No disagreement there Shred

[pskys2]

10 minutes ago, warpspeed said:

 

You're welcome ?

 

 

It's not my narrative - just my observation. I've shot revolvers in both USPSA & IDPA.  I have no distain for them or those who shoot them I just don't live in a delusional world where they are viewed as equal. 

 

 

No disagreement there Shred

Definitely not delusional, equal?  Never heard of any being equal.  Each division has its pros and cons, those who like and those who don't.  None are more popular than co, and I get it.  Us revolver guys just march to a different beat.  And we are discussing how, or if, it can be made a little bit more, fun, appealing or ???  Knowing full well we aren't the cool kids on the block.

[warpspeed]

I think the real goal should be for the BoD to listen to those who shoot the division and not those who don't. 

 

And as we all know, trying to figure out who the BoD, as it is currently made up, does listen to is a fools errand, at best.