cferree Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 Backstory, I've been a member for 31 years and actively shot 25+ years of that time. I'm classified in 6 Divisions. I just started the process getting classified in LO, and the same question that has plagued me in the past came back: if you're already classified, why aren't you classified with your 2nd, 3rd, etc. gun after shooting one classifier? If you currently are M in one division, the worst you new classification will be A, no matter what your scores are. Because of that, you should be classified as an A after that first classifier. After you've shot 3 more classifiers, you'll either be an A (if you shoot A or worse) or an M, if your scores are good enough (or GM if you shoot real good). So why should you have to wait for 3 more classifiers? Let the games begin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 Because you might be shooting M or GM scores with the new gun and other people will get very whiny if you are dropped into A without low scores to back that up. Say you are a 72% B in LO with what would be a CO-legal pistol like a P320. Why should you auto-get an "C" in CO for maybe taking off a magwell? It would open even more sandbagging opportunities. It also provides a distinction between people that have never shot a division in matches and those that have done it enough times to get classified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 because that's not what the rules say..... every bit of the classification system is entirely arbitrary, just made to stroke a few egos. If you care about classification, then you have to deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximis228 Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 An extra $1.50 per shooter per classifier. Its always about the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 18 hours ago, cferree said: Backstory, I've been a member for 31 years and actively shot 25+ years of that time. I'm classified in 6 Divisions. I just started the process getting classified in LO, and the same question that has plagued me in the past came back: if you're already classified, why aren't you classified with your 2nd, 3rd, etc. gun after shooting one classifier? If you currently are M in one division, the worst you new classification will be A, no matter what your scores are. Because of that, you should be classified as an A after that first classifier. After you've shot 3 more classifiers, you'll either be an A (if you shoot A or worse) or an M, if your scores are good enough (or GM if you shoot real good). So why should you have to wait for 3 more classifiers? Let the games begin! For that matter, why wait for you to shoot any? We could just automatically classify you in all divisions as soon as you classify in one. I'd assume the intent is that after you shoot your 4 you might still end up equal to your other classification. It's not crazy to think someone who's a legit A in CO could put up A out the gate in LO. If you just make them B, maybe they never bother to shoot classifiers to they can sandbag at majors. One could just always shoot CO/A and then go to majors and shoot LO/B. I'm sure this is already happening to some extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cferree Posted November 28, 2023 Author Share Posted November 28, 2023 (edited) The shooters aren't the ones getting paid at majors. Our classifications don't matter at Area and National matches. Sandbagging was a thing when RO's volunteered at majors. Shooting the match for free was their pay. The sponsorship money and a percentage of the entry fee went to the shooters, not the paid volunteers. Back then, there was something to win, now there's no reason to sandbag. Edited November 28, 2023 by cferree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 Hah. People will still do stupid things to win a $1 ribbon or $10 trophy. Yeah the first-walk of the prize table went away at Nats, but there's still plenty of sandbagging going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darqusoull13 Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 On 11/28/2023 at 4:57 PM, shred said: Hah. People will still do stupid things to win a $1 ribbon or $10 trophy. Yeah the first-walk of the prize table went away at Nats, but there's still plenty of sandbagging going on. You think people get excited about those cheap trophies, wait until you put a nice trophy out! I've seen figure skaters be more cordial to their competition for a belt buckle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 11 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said: You think people get excited about those cheap trophies, wait until you put a nice trophy out! I've seen figure skaters be more cordial to their competition for a belt buckle a belt buckle would actually be a pretty cool trophy. i have one from the leadville trail 100 (mtn bike race). Unfortunately i went under 9 hrs so i got the huge rodeo-clown one. The regular finishers buckle is elegant and wearable. I would totally trade my SS nats trophy for a nats belt buckle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 24 minutes ago, motosapiens said: i have one from the leadville trail 100 (mtn bike race). Unfortunately i went under 9 hrs Nice, that race is no joke! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 People would for sure sandbag even with no possible prize or trophy on the line. Example. I remember when I was younger playing halo 2 online. They had a system that ranked you based on skill level so you'd only play against people at a similar level to you. It went from 1-50 so if you were a 35 you might play against 30-40's. I can't remember exactly. There was zero gain, other than the number next to your name may imply a skill level. Some players would "de-level" meaning they would intentionally loose game after game to lower their level. You'd have guys that were 50 loose over and over just to drop down as low as the could stand. Why? So they could beat the crap out of people at the bottom instead of playing challenging games against guys at their level. No prizes, no trophies, just ego. 100% this would happen here if we were allowed. People generally suck and will for sure sandbag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 7 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said: Nice, that race is no joke! i have also done the cascade creampuff 100 in oregon several times. more climbing, and 50% singletrack, but also lower elevation, therefore a little bit easier physically imho. Leadville was about the hardest thing I've done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darqusoull13 Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 1 hour ago, motosapiens said: a belt buckle would actually be a pretty cool trophy. i have one from the leadville trail 100 (mtn bike race). Unfortunately i went under 9 hrs so i got the huge rodeo-clown one. The regular finishers buckle is elegant and wearable. I would totally trade my SS nats trophy for a nats belt buckle. We were pretty proud of the trophies for A4 SCSA back in the day. Every division plus a SASP youth sponsored team trophy. Belt buckles are for our big PRS matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted December 9, 2023 Share Posted December 9, 2023 Doesn't make sense to connect classification in 2nd+ division to sandbagging - how would it even work to "sandbag" by having a "U" next to your name? The OP's question is about the timing of the change from "U" to an actual class, something one can "control" by simply not shooting classifiers. A person who wants to be a "U" can remain a "U" indefinitely. It's not a class and it doesn't provide any benefit, so sandbagging as a motive doesn't sound plausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted December 9, 2023 Share Posted December 9, 2023 The classification system requires a certain number of classifiers to get a more representative score and it's not directly connected to the auxiliary rules that limit how cross-division classes correlate. When one is starting out, they are not automatically classified as "D" either, even though that's the lowest one can start with. Just because we know what the lowest is doesn't mean we bypass the process, and having to shoot a few classifiers to get a classification is a good rule, not only because it provides a much better average, but also because it indicates that the person actually dabbled in that division. But "sandbagging," .... c'mon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted December 9, 2023 Share Posted December 9, 2023 Its like other drivers,,, go half a mile an hour faster than me,,, you're a maniac and need to get off the road... Half a MPH slower and you're a giant idiot and need to get off the road... Beet me in my class,,, ahole sandbagger,,, Come in at bottom of class... yeh thats what you get grandbagger.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 9, 2023 Share Posted December 9, 2023 12 hours ago, IVC said: But "sandbagging," .... c'mon. You'd be surprised. I've known people that would declare Open and shoot a Limited (or LO or whatever) gun in Open right up until a major then switch to the proper division to win that class. Seen it first hand. I don't get it and there aren't a lot of them these days, but they're out there and so there's no reason to change the classification rules to make that any easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted December 9, 2023 Share Posted December 9, 2023 1 hour ago, shred said: You'd be surprised. I've known people that would declare Open and shoot a Limited (or LO or whatever) gun in Open right up until a major then switch to the proper division to win that class. Seen it first hand. I don't get it and there aren't a lot of them these days, but they're out there and so there's no reason to change the classification rules to make that any easier. My favorite was folks who would register for L-10 and shoot their SS Major rigs right up to big matches. Sandbagging without the sandbagging, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted December 9, 2023 Share Posted December 9, 2023 5 hours ago, shred said: I've known people that would declare Open and shoot a Limited (or LO or whatever) gun in Open right up until a major then switch to the proper division to win that class. Seen it first hand. But that's a different issue (and who even looks at the concepts such as "winning a class??"). People who start shooting a new division are not classified lower, they are simply not classified at all in that division. The flag "U" signifies the lack of classification. I'm not sure anyone could claim to have won "an unclassified class" no matter how pathetic the person... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 9, 2023 Share Posted December 9, 2023 2 hours ago, IVC said: But that's a different issue (and who even looks at the concepts such as "winning a class??"). People who start shooting a new division are not classified lower, they are simply not classified at all in that division. The flag "U" signifies the lack of classification. I'm not sure anyone could claim to have won "an unclassified class" no matter how pathetic the person... Yeah, we agree here. It's the OP that wanted to auto-assign a "one-letter-lower" class to members without any scores in a division at all, skipping over the 'U' step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-JCN- Posted December 10, 2023 Share Posted December 10, 2023 IDPA auto classes people into one lower. I don’t think it really matters either way. People will always find something to be discontent about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cferree Posted December 12, 2023 Author Share Posted December 12, 2023 On 12/9/2023 at 6:56 PM, shred said: Yeah, we agree here. It's the OP that wanted to auto-assign a "one-letter-lower" class to members without any scores in a division at all, skipping over the 'U' step. No I didn't. I believe that after you have shot one classifier in a second, third, etc. division, you shouldn't have to wait to shoot 3 more classifiers to be classified. I'm an M in multiple divisions. I'm going to be at least an A. If I get lucky, and after 3 more classifiers I make M in that Division, great. The other example is my Single Stack classification after shooting a 4 Classifier match, I'm an A 59% after bombing 2 out of the 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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