Life Expectancy - Ruger 10/22 magazines

[RickT]

My wife's practice magazines each see about 3000 rounds/year.  I do clean these mags as necessary, but despite my several years of experience dealing with these things I find it very difficult to restore them to reliable operation.  What have others seen for life expectancy and what parts have others replaced?  I've tried the Tandemkross springs/rotors/feed lips but haven't necessarily seen improvement in reliability.  Do the mag bodies degrade increasing friction, or simple spring wearout coupled with the challenge of getting the spring tension correct?

[zzt]

18 months tops, no matter what you do.  Clean, change springs, adjust feed lips, spray with mag slick, etc.  No joy.  Not worth the trouble.  Toss and buy new.  Same goes for Browning Buckmark mags.

 

I'm basing this on much more than 3k per year.  I gave up and went to 22 conversions on a 45 1911.  GSG mags.  Change mag springs every three years and done.  Actually, the only reason to change springs that often is they relax enough to allow 11 rounds to be inserted.  If you shoot in NJ, that's a big no-no.

[RickT]

That's 3K/mag/year, but I get the message.  My wife would like to continue shooting both pistol (Mamba-x) and the Kidd 10/22.  I can't express my true feelings about 10/22 mags in public.  If there were a lightweight, competition worthy 22lr rifle that used "good" mags I'd bite the bullet and steer things in that direction.

[Hoops]

7 hours ago, RickT said:

That's 3K/mag/year, but I get the message.  My wife would like to continue shooting both pistol (Mamba-x) and the Kidd 10/22.  I can't express my true feelings about 10/22 mags in public.  If there were a lightweight, competition worthy 22lr rifle that used "good" mags I'd bite the bullet and steer things in that direction.

I’m assuming you’re referring to the black 10 rd 10/22 mags.  I’m also assuming you frequently clean the bolt.
 

Several of my friends and myself included have found the black 10 rd mag to be unreliable.  One of my friends shoots the Kidd 10/22 carbine and almost stopped before he went to our conversion noted below:

 

1.  Use Tandemkross clear double magazine.  
2. Original Ruger orange rotor. 
3. Original Ruger metal feedlips.

4. Tandemkross green rotor spring.

5.  Tandemkross tool kit for magazine assembly.  Snug rotor then 2 full revolutions and push nut into next slot.

6. Volquartsen extractor.  Yep, it’s a factor for reliability.  ALL of us have gone to VQ extractor.

We have found the clear double mag body (not the triple) to fit the receiver much better than the original black 10 round mag.  My TK double clear mags are 100% reliable (*).  We also use only HV ammo in the 10/22 for reliability.  

 

(*) all 10/22 mags require reasonable maintenance.  CCI burns cleaner than Aguila as example.  So there is no magic number of rounds that I go by.  After every practice session and match I will brush off the feedlips and blow out the mags.

 

The clear mags allow you to see the internal wax ring that WILL build up over time.  Wax will also get on the rotor grooves.  I shoot matches every week and practice once a week (when not on injured reserve list ).  I will tear down and clean all internals, including the wax buildup inside the mag body once I see the wax building up.  It’s a pain but necessary (for all mags) if you want reliability.  The Tandemkross tool kit is very useful. 

 

I would recommend buying one TK clear double body and 2 green rotor springs and try it out.  Works for us.

 

Good luck.  

[Hoops]

8 hours ago, RickT said:

That's 3K/mag/year, but I get the message.  My wife would like to continue shooting both pistol (Mamba-x) and the Kidd 10/22.  I can't express my true feelings about 10/22 mags in public.  If there were a lightweight, competition worthy 22lr rifle that used "good" mags I'd bite the bullet and steer things in that direction.

I noticed you live in cold country.  I’m in South Texas (hot).  We avoid Aguila 22lr if it get cold….for us around 45 degrees.  Aguila’s heavy wax can drag inside magazine.  CCI mini mags for us is more reliable in cold weather.  But we are also  demanding 100% reliability in matches.  

 

Our opinion.  

[Hoops]

Sorry, in my insomnia state earlier, I am using 10/22 double clear mags that are 3 years old with a lot of rds thru them.    Since I’m a bit paranoid about reliability, I have changed rotor springs if I feel one has may be getting sprung.  Because of the way these springs are twisted inside the rotor, sometimes you may notice a slight deformity at the nut end.  In fact, this was my gripe with factory rotor springs…..I would get a deformity on the nut end after one cleaning.  
 

BTW……if you buy Ruger black 10 round mags for the internals, search for the 3 mag package….. value packs.  

[bigdawgbeav]

I will always recommend the Tandemkross DoubleKross mags and internals.  When they changed the design a bit then I stopped having breakage near the feed lips.  I like the polymer TK feed lips more than the stock steel from Ruger.  I've seen that metal become rough and pitted.  The polymer is nice and slick and have not had any issues.  

 

Every couple of years I do like to replace the feed lips just to freshen them up, but that me.

[Gregg K]

17 hours ago, RickT said:

My wife's practice magazines each see about 3000 rounds/year.  I do clean these mags as necessary, but despite my several years of experience dealing with these things I find it very difficult to restore them to reliable operation.  What have others seen for life expectancy and what parts have others replaced?  I've tried the Tandemkross springs/rotors/feed lips but haven't necessarily seen improvement in reliability.  Do the mag bodies degrade increasing friction, or simple spring wearout coupled with the challenge of getting the spring tension correct?

Like @Hoops mentioned, most of us in this area run the TK double mags with Ruger internals. I have been running the same internals for the last 3 1/2 years with way more rounds through them than what your wife has put through hers.

I do smooth and polish the outside surfaces of the Ruger metal feed lips where they rub the bolt. Many years back they came smoother than they do today so I just started slicking them up myself since I have the tools to easily do so. I have also contoured and polished the feed ramp in the mags but probably isn't really a necessity.  The TK double mags do crack after a while but hasn't made them malfunction plus TK has replaced them for free any time I have asked to refresh them.

 

As @Hoops mentioned, one of our local shooters had a Kidd gun that I don't believe ever made it through a match without malfunctioning until he went to the TK double mag bodies, factory mags fit pretty sloppy in his gun. His Kidd gun runs fine now on the doubles. I mention this since you said you also have a Kidd gun.

 

With Ruger springs in the rotors I wind them to 2.5 turns. Make sure that you only start counting the tension turns until after the long vain on the rotor contacts the feed lips, then count the turns from there. I have seen where others didn't tension properly because they didn't know when to start counting.

 

 

As mentioned, run good HV ammo and clean the inside of the mag bodies when you see the wax ring start to form (if running the clear mag bodies)

[RickT]

I'm doing most everything mentioned above except the TK bodies.  We use Mini-Mags, clear mags, and I've tried various combinations of the TK springs,feed lips, and springs.  I'm suspicious of the springs on the receiver plunger that retains the mags so I've changed these springs.  It's either the mag moving slightly out of alignment or something slowing the bolt down IMO.

[zzt]

I also use Tandemkross DoubleKross mags and internals.  The Kidd single stage trigger group holds them in with no wiggle.  I also use CCI MiniMags.  Zero feed issues.  In Winter I keep the ammo and mags in warmed compartments in my bag.  I also use the bullseye trick of running a line of lube across the top round in each mag.  It helps a lot.  If your ammo uses liquid wax, you don't need that.

 

I have not found any meaningful difference between Kidd, TK, and VQ extractors.  They all work much better than the one that came with my bolt.

[Hoops]

1 hour ago, RickT said:

I'm doing most everything mentioned above except the TK bodies.  We use Mini-Mags, clear mags, and I've tried various combinations of the TK springs,feed lips, and springs.  I'm suspicious of the springs on the receiver plunger that retains the mags so I've changed these springs.  It's either the mag moving slightly out of alignment or something slowing the bolt down IMO.

At this point you might consider buying one TK double mag to see how it works.  I also tried the Ruger clear 10 rd mag….not reliable for me.  I have 3 10/22’s and the TK doubles run in all 3.  
 

good luck

[Gregg K]

2 hours ago, RickT said:

 I'm suspicious of the springs on the receiver plunger that retains the mags so I've changed these springs.  It's either the mag moving slightly out of alignment or something slowing the bolt down IMO.

I have replaced the magazine latch plunger spring with a Kidd higher tension plunger spring.

https://www.kiddinnovativedesign.com/Magazine-Latch-Plunger-Spring--Higher-Tension_p_421.html

Also, is your barrel a Kidd as well or at least a full length and not a sleeved barrel? I have also had best luck with HV rounds and a standard or extra strength recoil spring.

As mentioned you may as well just get a double mag body and try it. You'll spend more money on ammo just trying to figure this out than what a mag body costs.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Gregg K

[zzt]

If you have a Bentz chamber in your barrel, that may be a cause.  Mine had problems feeding.  Some ammo flat out didn't work.  Stuff like Fiocchi standard vel and Eley target ran 100%.  Stuff that used hard wax lube, like CCI and many others caused intermittent problems.  At the recommendation of @Hoops, I replaced it with a Briley Raptor barrel.  Briley MFG - Briley “Raptor” 16.5” Ultra-lightweight 10/22 Rifle Barrel.  It feeds everything I've tried in it.  That includes all the ammo that would not run in my Bentz chambered barrel.

 

I'll note that I lost a little accuracy.  With good ammo and a rest, I was able to hit silhouette chickens at 50 yards every time.  With the Raptor, only 2 or 3 out of 5 shots.  100% on turkeys.  Still way more accuracy than needed for SCSA.

[Hoops]

12 minutes ago, zzt said:

If you have a Bentz chamber in your barrel, that may be a cause.  Mine had problems feeding.  Some ammo flat out didn't work.  Stuff like Fiocchi standard vel and Eley target ran 100%.  Stuff that used hard wax lube, like CCI and many others caused intermittent problems.  At the recommendation of @Hoops, I replaced it with a Briley Raptor barrel.  Briley MFG - Briley “Raptor” 16.5” Ultra-lightweight 10/22 Rifle Barrel.  It feeds everything I've tried in it.  That includes all the ammo that would not run in my Bentz chambered barrel.

 

I'll note that I lost a little accuracy.  With good ammo and a rest, I was able to hit silhouette chickens at 50 yards every time.  With the Raptor, only 2 or 3 out of 5 shots.  100% on turkeys.  Still way more accuracy than needed for SCSA.

@zzt good point.  All Kidd barrels have the same chamber.  It is a proprietary size.  They will tell you it’s not a bentz or a sporter chamber, therefore somewhere in between.  Most of us SC RFRO shooters use the Briley Raptor which is sporter chamber.  I should note that Briley has improved their bore cutting and the sporter size is consistent and cleaner cut.

 

@RickT if you have a Kidd barrel it is easy to check it with a sporter bit.  Easy to enlarge if necessary.

[RickT]

I'll definitely look at getting the chamber reamed.  For a while both my wife's rifles used the Wiland barrel.  While I recall come complaints herein regarding that barrel I don't recall having as many magazine issues with those barrels.  We went back to the Kidd barrels because my wife prefers the slightly heavier weight.

 

We do use mini-mags exclusively in the rifle and the standard (white) spring.  I've ordered some of the TK dual mags.

[Poozinsc]

I also use the Tandemkross clear magazines and they've proven to be very reliable.  I also replaced the factory mag retention spring with the stiffer TK one.  

 

Unfortunately, looking at the TK site today -- I don't see their rotors or feed lips listed.  Does anyone have any information on this?  .

 

 

[Hoops]

1 hour ago, Poozinsc said:

I also use the Tandemkross clear magazines and they've proven to be very reliable.  I also replaced the factory mag retention spring with the stiffer TK one.  

 

Unfortunately, looking at the TK site today -- I don't see their rotors or feed lips listed.  Does anyone have any information on this?  .

 

 

I just went to TK website.  No feedlips.  I found a link in a pull-down and it said product not available.  I just tried to call them.  Not taking live calls….asked for information for a call back.  Also suggested sending them email.  You may try to contact them.
 

I’m curious what you find out.

[Squirrel45]

TK is pretty responsive to emails 

[Farmer]

I have some original Ruger mags from 1968-69 that are still working fine and I don’t think they have ever been cleaned.  I do remember one coming loose one time but other than that no problems. Must have been made better back then. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Farmer
Sp

[zzt]

18 hours ago, RickT said:

For a while both my wife's rifles used the Wiland barrel.  While I recall come complaints herein regarding that barrel I don't recall having as many magazine issues with those barrels.

 

The older barrels had Bentz chambers, and they were troublesome.  Now they are all Sporter chambered unless you ask for Bentz.  Many fewer problems.

 

3 hours ago, Hoops said:

I just went to TK website.  No feedlips.  I found a link in a pull-down and it said product not available.

 

Glad I bought TK spares for everything.  Good thing.  I tossed all the Ruger feed lips and rotors.

[Powder River]

On 10/22/2023 at 6:51 PM, RickT said:

My wife's practice magazines each see about 3000 rounds/year.  I do clean these mags as necessary, but despite my several years of experience dealing with these things I find it very difficult to restore them to reliable operation.  What have others seen for life expectancy and what parts have others replaced?  I've tried the Tandemkross springs/rotors/feed lips but haven't necessarily seen improvement in reliability.  Do the mag bodies degrade increasing friction, or simple spring wearout coupled with the challenge of getting the spring tension correct?

 

Hi Rick,

What are the specific malfunctions you are seeing? Is the round nose diving into the feed ramp? Is the round missing the chamber and causing a high angle jam? Is the nose of the round in the chamber but the back of the round not moving up the breach face of the bolt?

 

For what it’s worth. I’ve found the 10 round BX mags to be very reliable. As others have pointed out they do need to be relatively clean and properly tensioned. Most guns will run well with the mags tensioned between 1.5-2 turns. 
 

Under tensioned can cause one type of malfunction-over tensioned typically causes a different malfunction. The timing of the rifle/ammunition combination can make a difference - As can bullet length and shape.
 

CCI SV and AR Tactical (1200 fps) have a very similar bullet shape and are both about .030” longer than Mini-Mag. This combination of bullet shape and length, present really nicely to the feed ramp. It’s almost like they were made for each other. 

 

Mini-Mag (1260), being shorter and having a more round bullet shape leaves a gap that the bullet has to jump before it hits the feed ramp. This can lead to nose diving into the feed ramp. Usually pulling the bolt back slightly will allow the nose to pop up and feed. This is an indication that a little more mag spring tension may be needed. Mags can certainly be turned to run Mini-Mags reliably.

[Squirrel45]

I ran mini's for a number of years, but switched to AR in the last month. Iv had excellent reliability in the 1500 rounds iv run. The last minis iv had incounted all kinds of issues. They feed fine in pistols but won't feed in multiple 10/22s. 

[WildPete]

3 hours ago, Powder River said:

 

Hi Rick,

What are the specific malfunctions you are seeing? Is the round nose diving into the feed ramp? Is the round missing the chamber and causing a high angle jam? Is the nose of the round in the chamber but the back of the round not moving up the breach face of the bolt?

 

For what it’s worth. I’ve found the 10 round BX mags to be very reliable. As others have pointed out they do need to be relatively clean and properly tensioned. Most guns will run well with the mags tensioned between 1.5-2 turns. 
 

Under tensioned can cause one type of malfunction-over tensioned typically causes a different malfunction. The timing of the rifle/ammunition combination can make a difference - As can bullet length and shape.
 

CCI SV and AR Tactical (1200 fps) have a very similar bullet shape and are both about .030” longer than Mini-Mag. This combination of bullet shape and length, present really nicely to the feed ramp. It’s almost like they were made for each other. 

 

Mini-Mag (1260), being shorter and having a more round bullet shape leaves a gap that the bullet has to jump before it hits the feed ramp. This can lead to nose diving into the feed ramp. Usually pulling the bolt back slightly will allow the nose to pop up and feed. This is an indication that a little more mag spring tension may be needed. Mags can certainly be turned to run Mini-Mags reliably.

 

 

Thanks for this information. I've been having issues during the end of the season running Mini Mags, and Kidd receiver and I've been using the Ruger 10/22 black mags. It sucks when you have a good string and feel the bolt didn't go forward and a quick pull back on the bolt and she works. I couldn't figure out what was going on as my Kidd had been reliable all year. Looking down into the chamber on stage after my last shot I saw the bolt was still back but the round was still in the mag, like it didn't budge. I had Rubys on and couldn't really see how the round was positioned, and had to make it clear. I'm pretty sure what you described is what was happening with my Mini Mag ammo. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by WildPete

[Squirrel45]

Give AR a try 

[old558]

On 10/23/2023 at 7:49 AM, Hoops said:

Sorry, in my insomnia state earlier, I am using 10/22 double clear mags that are 3 years old with a lot of rds thru them.    Since I’m a bit paranoid about reliability, I have changed rotor springs if I feel one has may be getting sprung.  Because of the way these springs are twisted inside the rotor, sometimes you may notice a slight deformity at the nut end.  In fact, this was my gripe with factory rotor springs…..I would get a deformity on the nut end after one cleaning.  
 

BTW……if you buy Ruger black 10 round mags for the internals, search for the 3 mag package….. value packs.  

+1 I buy the 3 packs and tear them down and install guts into the TK clear  double magazines.

3 packs are the way to go.