SCSA - Limited Optics

[Hoops]

@ZackJones RE: Stages.  Your example was 5-to-Go.  Did you intend to say eight new stages using the same current amount of 10”, 12” and 18”x24” plates but configured to fit most standard width, length bays?

 

And as @Gregg Kasked, eventually a pool of 16?

 

 

 

[old558]

Thanks @ZackJones I will be looking forward to some new changes.

I also think this might be a challenge,best of luck.

[Reinholt]

I am blessed to have multiple guns to shoot multiple divisions in SC, USPSA, Bianchi, etc.  I like having the ability to shoot a different division here and their because I have the toys.  Level one is just a fun day to be with friends and improve on times with the divisions that matter to me.  Level two and up matches are when rubber meets the road.  Adding more divisions becomes a hassle for match management constantly monitoring the number of guns each division has.  We all want to compete and be recognized in our division.  A recent Level 2 I participated in only had one SS entry, me but if I would have moved to Limited, I would have gotten second.  Also per Pracitscore I was the top Steel Master at the match.  Again, not enough entries to be recognized. 

 

As many have stated, we have many divisions and classifications so that all can feel special.  I know the sport needs to survive but we should think what is the best way. 

 

Open is what it is, build what you want and have fun.  I see many guns that would classify today as LO in Open, so why add it if the times are similar in Open and CO today.  

 

Find a way to handicap PCC and Rimfire for the appearance of overall win.  Major and Minor did that well back in the day. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Reinholt

[old558]

@Reinhold 

15 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

Find a way to handicap PCC and Rimfire for the appearance of overall win.  Major and Minor did that well back in the day. 

I agree with this, can probably be done easily with peak times.

[zzt]

18 minutes ago, old558 said:

@Reinhold 

I agree with this, can probably be done easily with peak times.

 

How?  Long guns would still dominate the Combined.  All that would do was make it harder to make a and up.

[old558]

3 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

How?  Long guns would still dominate the Combined.  All that would do was make it harder to make a and up.

 

3 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

How?  Long guns would still dominate the Combined.  All that would do was make it harder to make a and up.

Not sure I follow you. I'm only referring to the match overall win. Classifications would still be based on class peak times.

[Hoops]

@ZackJones RE: Limited Optics.  
 

There are ranges, for any number of reasons, that don’t allow “major” loads.  Open in USPSA is predominantly major loads.  SC Open, other than major matches, is essential a non-represented division.  Very few matches have Open guns.  When they are, maybe one or two.  Peak Times for Open are determined from WSSC so the bar is high.

 

All things equal, a slide mounted optic will be less competitive than the frame mounted optic in Open.

Clearly some CO guns in USPSA are being shot as LO.  But if you ask which type gun would be preferred in LO, the 1911/2011 style gun would most likely be the choice.

 

Given to low cost to convert a 1911/2011 gun to LO (especially resurrecting SS guns), LO has a high probability of becoming a popular SC division.

 

Last, it is going to be very difficult for the BOD’s not to allow LO in SC now that it has been allowed in USPSA.

 

Not all agree.  This is my opinion and my input to you.  

[zzt]

22 minutes ago, Hoops said:

There are ranges, for any number of reasons, that don’t allow “major” loads.  Open in USPSA is predominantly major loads.

 

This ^^^^^^^.  None of the clubs I shoot SCSA at will allow my USPSA major load on their steel.  I'm okay with that.  It's just that I built a dedicated 1911 Open gun to shoot major before I knew that.  It doesn't handle minor loads well until you get up to 155-160 PF.  That is still above the limit some clubs allow.  So, it sits in a case, unused.  For the few times I shoot SCSA Open now, I use factory 9mm or the reloaded equivalent.

 

31 minutes ago, Hoops said:

All things equal, a slide mounted optic will be less competitive than the frame mounted optic in Open.

 

With minor loads it makes no difference.  I have several examples of each.  Major is a different story.

[Joe4d]

On 10/11/2023 at 1:28 PM, Squirrel45 said:

This is off topic but it's why there shouldn't even be a combine score. Every division is separate and people get to focused on the top. 

if there wasnt a combined score we'd have all winners...  Matches I have shot only 20 or so shooters

[Hoops]

I was looking at the Sig 2023 Handgun National that just finished.  Looks like Limited Optics dominated the match.  I only saw handful of Open and SS gun out of around 450 guns.

 

Does anyone know if any shooters used their CO gun as LO in this match?  Would it be interesting to know if there were and how many?

 

Thanks

[Hoops]

On 10/14/2023 at 8:22 AM, Hoops said:

I was looking at the Sig 2023 Handgun National that just finished.  Looks like Limited Optics dominated the match.  I only saw handful of Open and SS gun out of around 450 guns.

 

Does anyone know if any shooters used their CO gun as LO in this match?  Would it be interesting to know if there were and how many?

 

Thanks

No reply to the above.

 

I decided to repost it.

 

thanks

[shred]

At that nats, Open, CO & PCC weren't recognized-- it was Iron Sights plus Limited Optics Nationals.  Open was only if you screwed up and got bumped there due to an illegal mod so its unlikely anyone serious shot a full on Open gun there.

 

[Hoops]

49 minutes ago, shred said:

At that nats, Open, CO & PCC weren't recognized-- it was Iron Sights plus Limited Optics Nationals.  Open was only if you screwed up and got bumped there due to an illegal mod so its unlikely anyone serious shot a full on Open gun there.

 

Thanks.  Clearly I’m a SCSA guy.
 

It’s probably too difficult to know how many shot their  CO as Limited Optics vs how many shot an actual Limited Optics gun?

[Hoops]

I pulled out my 2011 STI Edge 9mm I used in outlaw steel matches several years ago.  I had added skate tape to magwell sides to help lock in my grip.  Iron sights so I haven’t shot it in a long time.  

 

Would built up skate tape on magwell be legal USPSA Limited Optics if I added an optic to the slide?

 

Thanks

[shred]

Yeah, no restrictions on grip tape in LO.

 

[Chillywig]

Where can I vote for LO in SC? Oh and I still want rimfire revo divisions too please.... 

[Squirrel45]

2 hours ago, Chillywig said:

Where can I vote for LO in SC? Oh and I still want rimfire revo divisions too please.... 

[Hoops]

In today’s USPSA Downrange email, there is an interesting segment in the NROI Podcast #45 (37 minute mark) regarding Steel Challenge and Limited Optics.

 

They commented that there have been many inquiries about where to find LO in Practiscore and their response that it’s not an approved division….yet.  
 

There are some additional comments as well.  

[Hoops]

I decided to look thru Practiscore for Steel Challenge matches in my south and south central Texas…..Temple, College Station, Houston, Austin, San Antonio and Corpus Christie.  Single Stack (SS) is virtually non-existent.  Why when there  are thousands of 1911’s in safes.  A tuned 1911 is a sweet gun to shoot in 9mm.  Steel Challenge is perfect for 10 rd mags.  Iron sights in SC is dying….even Limited shooters are getting very few.  The recent Area 8 had 224 ish guns there were no SS guns and 3 Limited (C,D class).

 

Would the ability to add an optic for a LO division bring back 1911’s?  Better chance than without optic.

 

A friend asked me….If you were given the choice….with no cost to you, would you shoot your CO or your 2011/SAO gun in LO?  My answer was 2011.  But, I also own a couple of 1911’s that are well tuned that I would consider….that might be a lot of fun.

[euxx]

On 10/12/2023 at 8:10 PM, ZackJones said:

2 - LO... 

3 - Adding a new division may sound trivial at first but it's not. We would need to collect good stage times to do an good analysis for Peak Stage Times. I didn't do a good enough job for some of the low read divisions which is why we are top heavy with GM's in them. The good thing is we have had some GM's that are no longer shooting at that level request classification downgrade and I've approved every one so far. 

 

5 - LO part 2...

@ZackJones do you expect to see different PSTs for LO comparing to the current Open and current/adjusted CO PSTs? After all, Open, CO and LO are all sub-minor divisions (per 5.5.5).

[shred]

1 hour ago, Hoops said:

I decided to look thru Practiscore for Steel Challenge matches in my south and south central Texas…..Temple, College Station, Houston, Austin, San Antonio and Corpus Christie.  Single Stack (SS) is virtually non-existent.  Why when there  are thousands of 1911’s in safes.  A tuned 1911 is a sweet gun to shoot in 9mm.  Steel Challenge is perfect for 10 rd mags.  Iron sights in SC is dying….even Limited shooters are getting very few.  The recent Area 8 had 224 ish guns there were no SS guns and 3 Limited (C,D class).

 

I hit 91% in SCSA SS a few years ago when I was doing a lot of that.  IME 45 ACP 1911s are not fun to shoot SC with (especially w/factory ammo!) and there are orders of magnitude more of those over 9's in safes and even fewer 9mm 1911s lying around with a fast holster and six 10-round mags on hand as they are pretty odd ducks by then.   Especially when a safe that well stocked probably has a few .22s in it.

 

[Hoops]

56 minutes ago, shred said:

I hit 91% in SCSA SS a few years ago when I was doing a lot of that.  IME 45 ACP 1911s are not fun to shoot SC with (especially w/factory ammo!) and there are orders of magnitude more of those over 9's in safes and even fewer 9mm 1911s lying around with a fast holster and six 10-round mags on hand as they are pretty odd ducks by then.   Especially when a safe that well stocked probably has a few .22s in it.

 

maybe so and absolutely true about the 22’s.  

 

I bought 2 1911 Dan Wesson PM9’s a few years ago.  CZ had bought them.  Nice tolerances.  I think they were using Wilson Combat beaver tails then.  McCormick mags that were well tuned.  Fiber Optic front sights.  I really liked shooting it until my eyes gave out.  They sit in the safe.

 

Now, I absolutely hate the Colt Government 9mm gun without the nice beavertail.  I have one.  Eats my thumb webbing up.  It runs but just not for me.

 

At the same time I bought a Wilson Combat 9mm that was/is nice.  I haven’t shot that one very much.  Sits in my safe.

 

But I also have the 2011 STI Edge 9mm iron sight. MBX mags.  Stippled grip.  Super nice gun.  I just can’t shoot limited anymore.

 

It’s a no brainer for me which of these guns would get an optic…..the STI Edge hands down.

[Hoops]

Based on the November 2023 USPSA magazine LO is gaining popularity and here to stay for USPSA matches.  Article indicated majority shooting LO guns.  
 

@ZackJones you stated previously that it was your decision not to add provisionally in SCSA at the time.  Have you re-thought this and could it be added at any time?  

[schmidtg]

The fact that LO has not been added to SCSA is an implicit statement that "frame-mounted optics and compensators don't matter to any significant degree".

 

In that case, why are peak times for OPN so much lower than CO?

 

And yet another contradiction - if PROD is to CO as LTD should be to LO, why does LTD exist but not LO?  There is no optics analogue to LTD which means the divisions in incongruent with one another.

 

As a match director for Level 1 SCSA matches, I've met a huge number of shooters who are very confused as to why they can't shoot their slide-ride single-action gun in a dedicated division as they can in USPSA/PCSL.

 

And I don't buy the argument that going from 13 to 14 divisions will dilute the sport.  Most people invested in the game are already shooting multiple divisions at SCSA matches (be they Level 1/2/3).

[Hoops]

1 hour ago, schmidtg said:

The fact that LO has not been added to SCSA is an implicit statement that "frame-mounted optics and compensators don't matter to any significant degree".

 

In that case, why are peak times for OPN so much lower than CO?

 

And yet another contradiction - if PROD is to CO as LTD should be to LO, why does LTD exist but not LO?  There is no optics analogue to LTD which means the divisions in incongruent with one another.

 

As a match director for Level 1 SCSA matches, I've met a huge number of shooters who are very confused as to why they can't shoot their slide-ride single-action gun in a dedicated division as they can in USPSA/PCSL.

 

And I don't buy the argument that going from 13 to 14 divisions will dilute the sport.  Most people invested in the game are already shooting multiple divisions at SCSA matches (be they Level 1/2/3).

Good points.  We have the same confusion at our level 1 matches.  
 

@ZackJones is the SCSA liaison at USPSA.org who facilitates discussions like this with the BOD.  
 

People are trying to decide to buy or convert a LO gun for SCSA.  I would hope that soon, there would be an announcement on this subject….either yes or no.