SCSA - Limited Optics

[Hoops]

Is there a Limited Optics division in SCSA?

[KelsonAK]

Nope.  It’s called open.  

[Hoops]

I’m aware of Open.  But I understand USPSA has a Limited Optics?  Am I mis-informed?

[VeilAndrew]

Steel Challenge has chosen not to recognize the Limited Optics division. Optics + SAO will put you in the open division for steel challenge.

[Hoops]

Curious.  Any known reason SCSA chose no to?

[joseywales]

@Hoops, you're not misinformed. 

Limited Optics is a provisional division in USPSA - recognized for matches as of May 2023 (best I recall). 

 

IMO, the USPSA BOD didn't know it would attract the level of interest/support in the USPSA community that it has.

 

My guess is that it will be included by the next WSSC or by Jan 2024.

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by joseywales
grammer

[Hoops]

Thanks

[ZackJones]

This one is on me. At the Jan 2023 in person meeting I asked the BoD to exclude LO from SCSA as a provisional division. I wanted to see how well it would do in USPSA handgun matches and it's currently doing better than expected. I can see it being added in 2024 as a provisional division for SCSA. I would prefer to do provisional for one year to allow us to collect times to help us come up with a good set of Peak Stage Times for classification purposes. And no, club 13 won't become club 14 :). 

 

Two questions: (1) Would you shoot in an SCSA match as a provisional division and (2) would you just shoot your existing carry optics gun or would you buy one? 

 

I'd shoot it but with my CO gun. I wouldn't buy another gun to shoot it. 

 

[JM_]

57 minutes ago, ZackJones said:

This one is on me. At the Jan 2023 in person meeting I asked the BoD to exclude LO from SCSA as a provisional division. I wanted to see how well it would do in USPSA handgun matches and it's currently doing better than expected. I can see it being added in 2024 as a provisional division for SCSA. I would prefer to do provisional for one year to allow us to collect times to help us come up with a good set of Peak Stage Times for classification purposes. And no, club 13 won't become club 14 :). 

 

Two questions: (1) Would you shoot in an SCSA match as a provisional division and (2) would you just shoot your existing carry optics gun or would you buy one? 

 

I'd shoot it but with my CO gun. I wouldn't buy another gun to shoot it. 

 

I see no purpose to add more divisions into SCSA. On the contrary I would much rather see a condensing of divisions to make it a more competitive sport. 
 

For LO specifically, we’ve already got open and carry optics both of which can be shot minor only. I can shoot a LO gun just as fast as open.

 

There is no need to further dilute the divisions.

[42ATK]

LO makes no sense for SCSA

 

[warpspeed]

@ZackJones A USPSA compliant LO gun would not really be at any disadvantage in Centerfire Open for SCSA so no real reason for it to be a new division.

 

Unless of course some gun mfg sponsored shooter needs a world champion title and then by all means, add it to the other 13 already there. 

 

 

[Hoops]

14 is a better number than 13…..just saying

[Hoops]

6 hours ago, 42ATK said:

LO makes no sense for SCSA

 

Limited used to be my favorite division.  But now that my eyes can no longer see my iron sights, the gun has been in the safe.

 

I was not aware of LO until today and have not given it much thought.  I usually don’t worry about world records.  I do tend to think in terms of would LO draw new shooters to SCSA?  I can see a USPSA shooter shooting SCSA with his/her LO gun.

Maybe a good division add?  

[Hoops]

7 hours ago, ZackJones said:

This one is on me. At the Jan 2023 in person meeting I asked the BoD to exclude LO from SCSA as a provisional division. I wanted to see how well it would do in USPSA handgun matches and it's currently doing better than expected. I can see it being added in 2024 as a provisional division for SCSA. I would prefer to do provisional for one year to allow us to collect times to help us come up with a good set of Peak Stage Times for classification purposes. And no, club 13 won't become club 14 :). 

 

Two questions: (1) Would you shoot in an SCSA match as a provisional division and (2) would you just shoot your existing carry optics gun or would you buy one? 

 

I'd shoot it but with my CO gun. I wouldn't buy another gun to shoot it. 

 

I’m replying in reverse.  Sorry about that.

 

For around $375 I can convert my Edge to LO.  I would do it.  Trigger and magwell makes a big difference over CO.  
 

I’m predicting that LO will become very popular.

[42ATK]

4 hours ago, Hoops said:

Limited used to be my favorite division.  But now that my eyes can no longer see my iron sights, the gun has been in the safe.

 

I was not aware of LO until today and have not given it much thought.  I usually don’t worry about world records.  I do tend to think in terms of would LO draw new shooters to SCSA?  I can see a USPSA shooter shooting SCSA with his/her LO gun.

Maybe a good division add?  

You could simply shoot open - and it’s not that big of a disadvantage 

[Hoops]

I don’t disagree but also I’m trying to think why it would be a big deal.  Probably would gain more new LO shooters than revolvers.  

[jrdoran]

I shoot my 9mm 1911 with a slide mounted optic in Open.   All is good, not worried about PST in that division.  It is fun and keeps me current.     Having LO would give me 2x in a match to shoot it.

 

[Racinready300ex]

33 minutes ago, Hoops said:

I don’t disagree but also I’m trying to think why it would be a big deal.  Probably would gain more new LO shooters than revolvers.  

You wont gain any shooters, some shooters will just shoot more than one division. Is just giving guys another bite at the apple really reason enough for a new division?

 

5 hours ago, Hoops said:

14 is a better number than 13…..just saying

 

Lower numbers are better than higher numbers. 

 

5 hours ago, Hoops said:

 I would do it.  Trigger and magwell makes a big difference over CO.  

 

How does a magwell help in a game with no reloads? I get some people like how they feel, but they don't make you shoot better.

 

If you look at USPSA in some matches CO is winning over the top Open shooters on occation. That shows how close CO is to Open even with opens advantage of major. LO is basically a minor PF open gun. In a game with no PF requirement I just can't see any good reason to add this division.

 

I hope USPSA never gets to the point it's like SC with so many divisions that everything is completely watered down and meaningless. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Racinready300ex

[Hoops]

15 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

You wont gain any shooters, some shooters will just shoot more than one division. Is just giving guys another bite at the apple really reason enough for a new division?

 

 

Lower numbers are better than higher numbers. 

 

 

How does a magwell help in a game with no reloads? I get some people like how they feel, but they don't make you shoot better.

 

If you look at USPSA in some matches CO is winning over the top Open shooters on occation. That shows how close CO is to Open even with opens advantage of major. LO is basically a minor PF open gun. In a game with no PF requirement I just can't see any good reason to add this division.

 

I hope USPSA never gets to the point it's like SC with so many divisions that everything is completely watered down and meaningless. 

I started this topic without a clue about LO and trying to answer a question a friend asked me about it.  
 

Otherwise I really don’t have a dog in this hunt. 

[Joe4d]

59 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

How does a magwell help in a game with no reloads? I get some people like how they feel, but they don't make you shoot better.

 

Draw to first hit plays a bigger part in SC than it does in USPSA,,, a properly fit funnel and beaver tail can aid in getting a perfect hand position every time as there is no where else for your hand to go.

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Draw to first hit plays a bigger part in SC than it does in USPSA,,, a properly fit funnel and beaver tail can aid in getting a perfect hand position every time as there is no where else for your hand to go.

 

 

I don't see that being a huge deal TBH, but there is probably something there.

 

 

Looking at the WSSC results BJ won CO with a time of 76.14 and KC won open with a time of 76.13. Is there really enough difference between Open and CO to justify squeezing LO in between them?

 

But then again there are already so many divisions the game is irrelevant so adding another doesn't change anything. 

[zzt]

I don't see much difference between CO, LO and Open in SCSA.  For years I put a dot on my 40sw Limited gun and shot SCSA Open.  Later, I decided to build a dedicated 1911 Open gun.  My times eventually improved, but not because of the gun.

 

When primers were scarcer, I bought factory 9mm and shot it through my USPSA backup Open gun.  All I did was change out the recoil spring.  Yes, muzzle rise is a tad higher than with a real Open load.  It doesn't matter for SCSA, because it is back down before you reach the next target.  It is quieter and more pleasant to shoot than the minor Open load.

 

I have no objection to LO in SCSA.  Just another Division to shoot.  Heck.  I bought a 10/22 and a PCC just so I could shoot in more Divisions.  I might shoot LO just so I can use up all the 40sw minor ammo I have loaded.

Edited August 16, 2023 by zzt

[Joe4d]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

I don't see that being a huge deal TBH, but there is probably something there.

 

 

Looking at the WSSC results BJ won CO with a time of 76.14 and KC won open with a time of 76.13. Is there really enough difference between Open and CO to justify squeezing LO in between them?

 

But then again there are already so many divisions the game is irrelevant so adding another doesn't change anything. 

I was just addressing what a funnel did other than for reloads... Could say the same thing about reloads though. If you nail them you nail them with or without a funnel.. All a funnel does it take a really bad reload, and turn it into not quite so bad.. So I imagine youd find the same results if you timed 2 GM  equal skilled shooters reloading, with and without a funnel.
However time a couple C class shooters with and without a funnel 10 times at first shot and at reload and youd see an advantage.

Far as the main idea though ? No, I find the divisions ridiculous and more proof that USPSA is a horrible manager of steel challenge,, Totally clueless and out of touch.. Should sell it, or set up its own management .
I mean come on,, Single stack and limited,, Carry optic and open ? and now LO ? Official steel challenge ammo that meets power factor ?
Also matches I have been to not enough people to justify anything but straight up...If it was up to me Id have  Auto , revolver, rimfire auto, rimfire  revolver   each with Iron or optic. so 8 divisions,,,  then rimfire carbine,, as it does bring out the kids and girlfriends.

I am waiting for someone to tell me I cant use my frame mounted optic XDM

[Racinready300ex]

6 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

I was just addressing what a funnel did other than for reloads... Could say the same thing about reloads though. If you nail them you nail them with or without a funnel.. All a funnel does it take a really bad reload, and turn it into not quite so bad.. So I imagine youd find the same results if you timed 2 GM  equal skilled shooters reloading, with and without a funnel.
However time a couple C class shooters with and without a funnel 10 times at first shot and at reload and youd see an advantage.

Far as the main idea though ? No, I find the divisions ridiculous and more proof that USPSA is a horrible manager of steel challenge,, Totally clueless and out of touch.. Should sell it, or set up its own management .
I mean come on,, Single stack and limited,, Carry optic and open ? and now LO ? Official steel challenge ammo that meets power factor ?
Also matches I have been to not enough people to justify anything but straight up...If it was up to me Id have  Auto , revolver, rimfire auto, rimfire  revolver   each with Iron or optic. so 8 divisions,,,  then rimfire carbine,, as it does bring out the kids and girlfriends.

I am waiting for someone to tell me I cant use my frame mounted optic XDM

 

I can't really disagree with any of that, I think we're on the same page. 

[lgh]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

f it was up to me Id have  Auto , revolver, rimfire auto, rimfire  revolver   each with Iron or optic. so 8 divisions,,,  then rimfire carbine,, as it does bring out the kids and girlfriends

Sounds good to me! I'll be doing my first SC match this year. Since I'm in it for the fun, I show up, show them what I'm shooting, and they can put me in any class they want. I did the same thing with IDPA.