No New Divisions!

[Steve Moneypenny]

Limited 10 has BECOME a hiding place anyone that shoots a double stack in limited 10 (and can legally own mags that hold more) Is a hiding from better shooters that are shooting in Open class!!!

From it's creation it was made to give people a place to play who couldn't afford the more expensive mags banned magazines, and to give 1911 single stacks a place to shoot. Flash forward to today... Double stack STI's are running a large portion of the show, we have made another division to fix the problems witht he previous division... wait. why didn't we fix it!!!!

Here are my goofy thoughts. Call me crazzzy!

Make holster rules that of production! Less racy and more practical.

The other is not mine, others have DONE this.... limited 8... 8 in the gun... we are supposed to be 8 round friendly with 8 round arrays some even say 6 round friendly.... Now we are single stack friendly, we don't need another division to let middle of the pack whiners hide in. Nobody is effected by not being able to own mags or needing to buy new mags.

This may sound nuts, but now we have people suggesting open 10... this one was a joke but OTHERS were serious. and glock division flex. jeez.

[Kingman]

Don't forget the damn problem we have of really just creating the I wana win phenomenon.

[AikiDale]

"We're all winners"

[MikeFoley]

Factory single stacks with 8 round mags, 8 round wheelguns, production guns that hold less than 10, etc. should be seperated from widebody race guns. OPEN, LIMITED, LIMITED 8, REVOLVER

New shooters wouldn't scratch their heads at what to shoot, or be intimidated by the Limited GM shooting M with his supertuned heavy wide magwell half full mags race rig. Manufacturers of those guns might come to the table, though it seems Kimber doesn't give a rats axx regardless.

I shoot Limited primarily, and do not understand why anyone would shoot their 20 round gun with only 10 in it, kinda like cutting off half of your unit. I also shoot Production and Revolver, and intend on shooting SS division too. SS has more appeal to me than L10 because of the magazine capacity of my 1911 is not 10 and I like shooting against like equipment. I do not care about winning, or placement, but it is always a better comparison when everyone shoots similar gear.

It seems there is a lot of stereotyping going on on this issue, and it is hard to stay focused on the different opinions and the reasons to support them. It isn't about winning to everyone, and it isn't about whining, it just seems logical. Auto racing, horse racing, boxing, the olympics, all match their categories better than we do.

Edited December 21, 2005 by fomeister

[ong45]

I think they should have done L-10 right the first time and made it single stack only.

Capacity and mag / holster rules seem ok to me.

James

[Al Capizzo]

I think they should have done L-10 right the first time and made it single stack only.

Capacity and mag / holster rules seem ok to me.

James

+1 +1 +1

[spook]

Kind of off topic, but man, I wish they had a limited capacity auto division in IPSC...

We could need one...

[davidball]

I think they should have done L-10 right the first time and made it single stack only.

Capacity and mag / holster rules seem ok to me.

James

+1

Wouldn't this have addressed most / all of the concerns expressed above AND the goal of providing a level playing field for those using this equipment?

[Sam]

I decided to shoot a single-stack for 2005 and shot against fat guns much of the time. I am certain in my own mind, that I was never at a disadvantage. For me personally, the advantage of my high-cap blaster is totally lost if the full capacity isn't utilized. I have a S_I widebody and I keep good notes on my practice and progress, so I've proved this to myself over time.

One day in 2004, I shot an 18 round triangle drill very clean in under 8 seconds with my SS. I was stunned, to say the least. That was with a reload between each box (2 reloads), the boxes are 5 yards apart. I knew right away that I could do no better with my fat gun, without reloads. Under 8 seconds on this drill is the holy grail for me. Something clicked! I could shoot my favorite blaster in L10 division!

I don't know what will become of L10 as a division. But, I do believe that people who live in states and provinces that restrict magazine capacity need a division in which to compete. We have a lot of members in these states.

I don't mind shooting against full-tilt limited "race" guns in L10 if they don't mind shooting against my single-stack.

[caps]

I think the real problem is that one knee-jerk reaction caused most of our problems.

When the AWB came into force, we should've just restricted Limited (and maybe Open) to "10 rounds loaded" and not create a whole new L10 division identical in all respects to Limited except for the round count.

Then it would've made even more sense to have a Single-Stack division but we even got that wrong coz it's really a Single-Stack 1911 Only division.

[Kimberkid]

This is the stupidest argument and I cant believe it is still going.

I agree they shoulda done L10 different from the start, but they didnt, so deal with it as is.

SS division is a fine idea, keep them both.

I think everyone here can find something more worth talking about than "hiding". If a guy is "hiding" in a different class in an attempt to win it, and succeeds, he still won. If he "hides" to avoid getting an incredible embarressing beating, how is that wrong? Now we all have to hang ourselves out for public ridicule? This idea of "hiding" is the dumbest thing I have ever heard, as it HURTS NO ONE!!!!!! Also, why is it that we must be wedded to 1 division? I generally shoot Open, but enjoy shooting Production, now I cant, lest I be labelled a "hider".

Why shoot a fat gun in L10? Its fun. One of the biggest reason everyone is shooting S-I guns is they are so quick to reload, it makes sense to use that in a division that puts focus on reloading. Or we can all shoot Open/Limited guns, and never have to do more than 1 reload per stage ever again.

Moreover, why cant we all accept that different people like shooting different ways and accommadate that.

BTW isnt bashing one division over another against Forum Guidelines?

[Chriss Grube]

Oh my god the forum guidelines....opps what were we thinking. Ok everybody stop right now and go to the corner. We were all very naughty and will only get a lump of coal from the excessively height and weight challenged person in the bright red suit for not being politically correct and actually using free speech to discuss a topic which concerns our sport.

When did we come up with "it is not about winning"? Have we really reduced ourselves to the level of the typical soccer mom, What next we don't want anyone to feel bad so we won't keep score. Wake the hell up, grow a set and realize it is all about winning. This sport was derived from the quest to find the best equipment and techniques to WIN a gunfight. We are slowly turning into a nation of non competitve whiners. I can't win so make a place for me. I hope to god it stops or I guess we'll all have to get used to having a holiday tree, speaking a different language, and being slaves. This attitude will surely result in the eventual surrender of our country to some body that has a set. "Gee sir, we would fight back then somebody would lose and that wouldn't be nice. " Ther now that should be enough to have somebody lock this one.

[et45]

Open as is,Double Stack and Single Stack with no extended mags and Revolver with 6rds max,if you want to shoot a 7 or 8 rd revo move to Single Stack . JMO.

[PhilTerry]

Or we could get really radical and just shoot the four IPSC divisions like the rest of the world!

[tightloop]

+1 Chriss

If they can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen....It is ALL about winning....seeing your name at the top of the page...practice and equipment is all about getting you to where you want to be....TOP of the Page...

[mcb]

I am a pretty much still a newb. I started shooting this past April and have shoot probably 9-11 club level matches this summer. I had purchase an XD-40 before discovering USPSA and brought that XD-40 to a local match with only 4 magazines and a single paddle double mag pouch and paddle holster. I shot production the first match or two because that's were they told me I should shoot. I had a lot of fun learning.

As I learned about the different division I was quickly drawn to Limited-10. I had originally been drawn to USPSA shooting because it was the only shooting sport I could find that required reloading as part of the game. Limited-10 and Production had the most reloading (short of revolver which I will be starting this coming season) but Limited-10 rewarded me for shooting full power loads in my XD-40 {and I was stuck shooting full power load since I was not reloading at the time}. Since the XD-40 is built on a 9mm gun and uses 9mm width magazines there is no way to get enough rounds in a 140mm XD-40 magazine to be competitive in Limited (major). (Trust me I have tried 16rd is the max you can get in an XD magazine and still be under 140mm.)

None-the-less it never really bother me as I was happy in Limited-10 since I got lots of reloads on the stages, rewarded for shooting major and was allow to tweak my gun like adding a mag-well and similar modifications that are not allowed in Production. By the end of the summer I was classified "C" in Limited-10 and less than 3% from "B" and competitive in Limited-10 and still have fun.

It never occurred to me that Limited-10 was for single stack. Yah I am probably a special case give the equipment I originally brought to my first match but Limited-10 fits me and my equipment well and gave me room to tweak and grow and I would be sad if forced to move up to Limited or back down to Production.

Ramblings of a newb

mcb

[SteveZ]

I don't mind shooting against full-tilt limited "race" guns in L10 if they don't mind shooting against my single-stack.

I think Sam and I are keepers of the L10 flame. He and I are in agreement about shooting skinny guns against widebody guns....doesn't matter one bit.

It seems to me that the USPSA is doing everything they can to try and kill off L10. First they create a parallel look-a-like division (everyone I know shooting L10 is shooting a single stack) and claim that one of the reasons for doing so is to attract IDPA shooters* then they match L10 and Revolver with Limited Division for the Nationals. What do you think most of the "name" shooters will shoot? Limited of course! And then they'll complain that L10 and Revolver didn't get enough participation.

How about this for a nationals split: Open/Limited and Prod/L10/Rev. Oh that won't work because the same "name" shooters will complain that they can't win TWO titles (Lim AND Open). Sometimes I wonder who USPSA views as their customers.

*regarding IDPA crossovers. There's a fairly active IDPA club in our woods....and only one of those shooters has crossed over to IDPA and shot L10 (conversely there is a handfull of IPSC shooters that have gone the other way)....none of the others are remotely interested in using their CDP gear in SSD....so much for that plan.

[Chuck D]

L10 was NEVER designed to be a SS only Division. It's a byproduct of the AWB.

Why this is SO hard to understand is beyond me.

"How about this for a nationals split: Open/Limited and Prod/L10/Rev. Oh that won't work because the same "name" shooters will complain that they can't win TWO titles (Lim AND Open). Sometimes I wonder who USPSA views as their customers."

Your absolutely right.

"I don't know what will become of L10 as a division. But, I do believe that people who live in states and provinces that restrict magazine capacity need a division in which to compete. We have a lot of members in these states. "

Thank you VERY much.

[Steve Moneypenny]

I swear if i keep hearing "single stack only" i'm going to burn my single stack! i love the guns, but what about the hundreds of models out there that are MAJOR but CAN'T compete in limited.

To name a few

Glock 23 and 27

Beretta 96

Springfield XD 40

S&W 40's

Sig 40's

5 divisions is/was enough

Kimber Kid, I am NOT bashing i'm looking for a solution.

Yes, we need more divisions. I hate when people get a gold medal for just showing up! I teach martial arts i had one student who was 16 yr old female. another who is 35, very over weight and handicapped and takes advantage of that every chance she gets. The 16 yr old moves to adult division (18-35 black belt, the hardest female division out there) she wins... gold medal to me that is one hell of an accomplishment. she trained hours every day for 6 days a week for years to accomplish this. Student 2, she trains 2 days a week goes to nationals. 1 other person in the whole division she wins a gold and 2 silvers... yet she is also a "national champion" .. i see us going down that road when we have 10 national champions....

Those of us who do train hard daily deserve the respect that comes with results.

[pskys2]

I don't mind many divisions. As long as Match Directors have the ability to limit recognition to only those with a viable amount of competitors, who cares.

L10 wasn't meant to be a SS division. It was a fear of the future division. Or maybe it should've been called the Left Coast Division, Liberal Division or whatever. The guys living in places that can't have more than 10 rounds, well MOVE Da**it, any government that won't trust it's civilians to own a d**n metal tube over a certain size doesn't deserve your trust, loyalty or **&&!!##$$%!

Sorry folks pskys2 just exploded and it will take a while to reassemble the pieces.

[Ron Ankeny]

My God this is getting old.

[h4444]

I'm pretty open minded about the divisions, I just want to be able to grab a gun out of the safe and go rock and roll and compete against folks of my own skill level....acknowledging of course the sandbagger/grandbagger factor, but in my mind thos folks don't count because they many times are easy enough to spot.

With that said, the en vogue thing to do these days seems to be the specialty gun match,,,,revolver only, glock only, single stack only, and etc.

Seems the problem is solved there largely.

Sure many rural areas or areas with lower concentrations of shooters don't benefit as much from this, but honestly, are these the areas having problems with this???

In as much as we are USPSA shooters, we almost all belong to "gun clubs" and generally we all play by the USPSA rules but I'm guessing you all have other specialized or other types of matches at your clubs. Seems like a lot of the solutions to the "problem" already exists and are being practiced.

One of the things our club does is run multiple matches per month, some are "anything goes" matches and that generally means Limited and Open and that's cool. The others are revolver, L10, prov SS, and etc.

So, we use our own schedule to inject variety. Then on top of that, we inject some larger specialty matches. The Iowa Single Stack match, next year there will likely be a Ioware Revolver match,,,,,and etc.

The fact remains we have "the power" to solve whatever problem we perceive to exist on a local level, without asking USPSA to legislate a solution for us which inevitably will irk a great deal of people.

I can and will play the game by whatever rules are set. I don't see this as a huge issue as locally we can deal with it,,,,but I guess that's the conservative "state's rights" republican coming out in me.

H4444

[Chuck D]

"Politics

Policy or political debates of any kind are not welcome.

Specifically including (but not limited to):

USPSA vs IPSC

IPSC vs IDPA

STI vs SVI

Limited 10 vs Limited Class

This Division vs That Division

This Government vs That Government

This is not a free speech issue. As a privately funded and collectively ran "information exchange," we have found that the emotional nature of political discussions weakens the informative impact of the Forum. "

Moderators: Just a "friendly" reminder of the Forum Guidelines in which this topic seems to violate in one form or another.

Now, my LAST comment. So far in the past 3 to 4 days, as an avid L10 fan and participant, I (and others) have been accused of "hiding in L10 Division from the REAL competition in Limited and Open Division. In addition, I've been told to "move" from my home State if I want the right to own a Hi-Cap magazine and that somehow my choice of Division led to a problem of too many Divisions that "waters down" the level of competition for all the other USPSA members. This isn't the only incident by the way...it's a reoccuring theme in a small but extremely vocal group of people. All that's left is to make degrading remarks about my Mother and they'll have covered all the bases of insults that could have been used to cheese me off.

There is enough aggravation in the world already. I no longer need the aggravation experienced here by feeling the need to respond to topics such as these. Moderatiors should have addressed the "This Division vs. That Division" nonsense from the get-go. I'm sorry that they didn't.

I would like to stick around and continue this agrument but I'm WAY to busy preparing my "hiding spot" for the upcoming IPSC season. One never knows how long I'll have a spot to "hide" in so I had better take advantage of it while it lasts.

After 900 some posts...I'm done. Happy Holidays to all...especially those "hiding" from real competition.

Edited December 21, 2005 by Chuck D

[Merlin Orr]

After 900 some posts...I'm done. Happy Holidays to all...especially those "hiding" from real competition.

Now this is a crying DAMN SHAME!