ROs and duties

[barry]

45 minutes ago, shred said:

They did that at Pan Am and World Shoot-- couple scoretakers went down each side of the stage sending scores with hand signs back to a RO with the tablet at the back cranking in scores.  Tapers followed right behind the scoretakers.  Scored and reset extremely fast but the shooter needed a delegate or they would never see any questionable hits.

There in lies a big problem. A large number of R.Os at major matches never look at a close call but always score it against the shooter as if that's thir job. Has anyone ever seen a close call be in the shooters favor without being asked for an overlay?? Seems I have to challenge a call at least once at every major match I shoot and don't remember the last time I was wrong. Shooters need to know how to score targets and would be greatly helped by becoming R.Os themselves. 

[motosapiens]

22 minutes ago, barry said:

 Has anyone ever seen a close call be in the shooters favor without being asked for an overlay??

 

I see it all the time. As a frequent CRO at A1 and nationals, I make sure my RO's know to pull out the overlay if the shot is close. Saves alot of time and trouble. I also make sure they are scoring the targets correctly (which is pretty shooter-friendly in most cases). It is true however that not everyone does this, so it is important to have a delegate in these instances.

 

In the rare occurrence where I have used early scoring, it is typically only for 2-3 targets, and I make sure the squad knows to give the shooter time to look at any close calls before taping, and I make sure the RO's know to call out any targets that the shooter might want to look at.

[barry]

That's the way it should be

[driver8M3]

1 hour ago, barry said:

Has anyone ever seen a close call be in the shooters favor without being asked for an overlay??

 

Unless you ask ROs to overlay hits when you're already getting the higher scoring call (a close alpha/charlie, and you get the alpha), then you're only ever going to see/confirm mistakes that go against you. I suspect both types of error occur with the same frequency...possibly even more that favor the shooter (because ROs know it's less likely to result in some type of dispute, including some that could cause delays on the stage). The ratio of shooters asking for an overlay on a call that went in their favor vs. not in their favor is like 1:1000. It happens, but only very rarely.

[broadside72]

When I work majors, the overlay comes out anytime its close, with or without being asked. I want the shooter to get the score they earned. 

[motosapiens]

5 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

When I work majors, the overlay comes out anytime its close, with or without being asked. I want the shooter to get the score they earned. 

this is a sign of a good RO. 

 

It also pre-empts alot of time-wasting appeals and discussion. Even if I can tell at a glance that a bullet hole is not going to get the higher score, the shooter is much more likely to accept it without argument if take a quick 3 second look with the overlay.

[abbafandr]

I'll always use overlays on close call.  Another thing, as an RO, you can't get upset it  when a shooter calls for an overlay.  IMHO, they paid the match fee and deserve a fair, accurate call.  I've had calls overridden by the RM at big matches; so what.  I'm trying score and keep the match moving as quickly as possible, mistakes can happen.

A beef I have is with a RO who starts trying to tell the RM what he scored and why.  NO!  Let the RM score it, that's what you are supposed to do, not sell him on your call.

[OPENB]

Or I've seen the RM ask the RO "how'd you score it?" before he's rendered his decision. I always think he doesn't want to piss off his staff and then no one will work it in the future if he doesn't back his RO's call.

5 minutes ago, abbafandr said:

I'll always use overlays on close call.  Another thing, as an RO, you can't get upset it  when a shooter calls for an overlay.  IMHO, they paid the match fee and deserve a fair, accurate call.  I've had calls overridden by the RM at big matches; so what.  I'm trying score and keep the match moving as quickly as possible, mistakes can happen.

A beef I have is with a RO who starts trying to tell the RM what he scored and why.  NO!  Let the RM score it, that's what you are supposed to do, not sell him on your call.

 

[Thomas H]

On 3/20/2023 at 12:12 PM, Dirty_J said:

When the "opinion" is also shared by NROI... you should probably take note of it. At a minimum... it's a bad habit and/or "worst practice" and should be avoided if at all possible. 

 

Congratulations on missing the point, regarding making absolute statements but being forced to put "should" into them at the same time.

 

It quite literally depends on the situation.

 

Example:  Stage is a speed shoot (so from one position).  Does safety require two ROs to watch the shooter at all times?  Of course not. 

 

Example:  Different stage has one target engaged from the start position to the left, then movement and an entire array from the second position, moving literally to the right.  After that, the shooter moves forward and finishes the stage.  The CRO moves with the shooter to the right.  The tablet guy takes 3 seconds to look at and score that first target on the left, saving quite a bit of time on scoring and resetting because all the other targets are off in the distance to the right and forward.  The tablet RO is back by the shooter before they move forward.  Does safety require both ROs to watch the shooter during their first movement directly to the right when the CRO is right there?  Of course not.

 

Actual experienced ROs know perfectly well that much of the time, having at least two ROs watching the shooter (one from each side) is indeed by far the best thing.  They ALSO know that there are plenty of occasions when that isn't necessary.

 

More importantly, they also know plenty of occasions when it simple isn't possible, as often occurs at local club matches.

 

Know who also knows that?  NROI folks.

 

And that's why they call it a "best practice" as opposed to a "match requirement."

[perttime]

On 3/21/2023 at 4:16 PM, shred said:

They did that at Pan Am and World Shoot-- couple scoretakers went down each side of the stage sending scores with hand signs back to a RO with the tablet at the back cranking in scores.  Tapers followed right behind the scoretakers.  Scored and reset extremely fast but the shooter needed a delegate or they would never see any questionable hits.

 

For "questionable hits", usually also missing bullet holes and NS hits, it is a common practice in my area to slow down a bit and call the shooter to see those for him/herself. There usually aren't all that many of those, to make a huge difference.

[Kiwishoot]

On 3/22/2023 at 4:07 AM, barry said:

Seems I have to challenge a call at least once at every major match I shoot and don't remember the last time I was wrong. 

Crickey. You must be very unlucky.

[barry]

No I just know how to score a target and at a major match I expect the R.Os. to know to. I've been a match director and an R.O. for over 30 years and have worked many area and section matches.

 Most shooters don't seem to know proper way to score a target and get screwed by it or on occasion get I gift.

[Kiwishoot]

Like I said... unlucky to have to challenge a call at least once at every major match.

[Joe4d]

stop shooting on the edges,,, Problem solved.
Reminds of the folks crying perfect double.... Umm If you are good enough to put 2 bullets in one hole, you are good enough to spread em out a bit.

 

[motosapiens]

17 hours ago, Kiwishoot said:

Like I said... unlucky to have to challenge a call at least once at every major match.

 

3 hours ago, Joe4d said:

stop shooting on the edges,,, Problem solved.
Reminds of the folks crying perfect double.... Umm If you are good enough to put 2 bullets in one hole, you are good enough to spread em out a bit.

 

 

if by 'challenge', you mean 'ask the RO to overlay', for sure I do that at every major match. I whip out my own overlay multiple times per squad when I'm RO-ing a major. It is a fact that the majority of uspsa competitors don't know how to score a target correctly, and even most RO's don't learn until they have been overruled by the RM a couple times. I want everyone to get the correct score.

 

if by 'challenge', you mean appeal the RO's call to the CRO and/or RM, I don't do that as often, but I have had to do it multiple times in the same match. So far I've lost only 2 of those appeals, and one of them was for a double that did in fact turn out to be 2 alphas in the same hole (clearly visible on the video). I don't stress about it however. If there's no physical evidence, you can't really get the score even if you know as a shooter that it's really there.

Edited March 27, 2023 by motosapiens

[barry]

If you can clearly see( because you know how to score a target) the ro is wrong go up the chain to cro then range master. If you lose so be it take the miss and move on like a gentleman. 

As far as perfect doubles go they happen more than you think. If you have ro'd much you have seen the second bullet go thru the same hole and when you look at the target couldn't prove it. Had it happen yesterday at a match when I was ro'ing. If you haven't seen this happen you either haven't ro'd much or aren't very good at it.