ROs and duties

[varminter22]

Virtually everyone is quick to reiterate how imperative it is to adhere to the rules and safety procedures. 

 

However, I see this rule broken at many matches.  Many, MANY clubs have only two ROs on a stage which is [usually] fine if both do their primary jobs.  But commonly they allow the Scorekeeper RO to disregard the shooter and score targets while the shooter is still shooting the course of fire.  

 

When asked about that, they invariably say, "Oh this is just a club (Level I) match."  

 

NROI Tips – RO Positioning

 

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by varminter22

[BlindAsABat]

Have a friend verify the scores. There is nothing wrong with the ARO scoring targets before the shooter is done at ANY level match. This happens all the time at majors. See Rules 9.6.2/3/4 etc. which cover this exact thing. At majors there are usually more than 2 ROs though. Sometimes it's just required to keep things flowing and prevent backups, even at a level 1.

Edited March 18, 2023 by BlindAsABat

[Dirty_J]

22 minutes ago, BlindAsABat said:

Have a friend verify the scores. There is nothing wrong with the ARO scoring targets before the shooter is done at ANY level match. This happens all the time at majors. See Rules 9.6.2/3/4 etc. which cover this exact thing. At majors there are usually more than 2 ROs though. Sometimes it's just required to keep things flowing and prevent backups, even at a level 1.

Pre-scoring targets should NEVER take precedence over at least 2 sets of eyes on the shooter at any given time. Even at a “level 1”. 
 

“Keeping things flowing” is not as important as safety and competitive equity. 

[varminter22]

39 minutes ago, BlindAsABat said:

Have a friend verify the scores. There is nothing wrong with the ARO scoring targets before the shooter is done at ANY level match. This happens all the time at majors. See Rules 9.6.2/3/4 etc. which cover this exact thing. At majors there are usually more than 2 ROs though. Sometimes it's just required to keep things flowing and prevent backups, even at a level 1.

So, BlindasaBat, you're saying Troy McManus, DNROI, is wrong?  See attached documents.

 

Dirty J (above) has it right!

Quote

Pre-scoring targets should NEVER take precedence over at least 2 sets of eyes on the shooter at any given time. Even at a “level 1”. 
 

“Keeping things flowing” is not as important as safety and competitive equity. 

Unquote

Two ROs_Scoring_Rules.docx Two ROs_Scoring_Rules.rtf Two ROs.rtf

Edited March 18, 2023 by varminter22

[BlindAsABat]

Read the rules...

 

9.6.2
The Range Official responsible for a course of fire may stipulate that the
scoring process will begin while a competitor is actually completing a course
of fire. In such cases, the competitor’s delegate must be entitled to
accompany the official responsible for scoring in order to verify the scoring.
Competitors must be advised of this procedure during the squad briefing.

 

It's not ideal if you only have two ROs. In that case, you could easily give the tablet to third person to score targets to free up your second "RO" and have a second set of eyes on the competitor. There's nothing that says the person on the tablet (or the timer for that matter) has to be a certified RO. It's not a hard problem to solve. At a level 1, having another person (not the ROs running the shooter) score in advance would be the way I would solve this issue if you must score in advance.

 

 

[varminter22]

The point is:  If the scorekeeping RO is going to score targets while shooting is still in progress, you are supposed to have a third RO (or more as necessary).  

 

You did not say anything about that.  You just said, "There is nothing wrong with the ARO scoring targets before the shooter is done at ANY level match."  And that is incorrect unless you also say you must have another RO watching the shooter.  

[Joe4d]

2 hours ago, varminter22 said:

So, BlindasaBat, you're saying Troy McManus, DNROI, is wrong?  See attached documents.

 

Dirty J (above) has it right!

Quote

Pre-scoring targets should NEVER take precedence over at least 2 sets of eyes on the shooter at any given time. Even at a “level 1”. 
 

“Keeping things flowing” is not as important as safety and competitive equity. 

Unquote

Two ROs_Scoring_Rules.docx 15.37 kB · 1 download Two ROs_Scoring_Rules.rtf 52.42 kB · 0 downloads Two ROs.rtf 48.39 kB · 0 downloads

I'll say he is wrong,, What rule is he quoting with his "Required" statements.. ?  I might have missed it.

 

[Boomstick303]

6 hours ago, varminter22 said:

However, I see this rule broken at many matches.  Many, MANY clubs have only two ROs on a stage which is [usually] fine if both do their primary jobs.  But commonly they allow the Scorekeeper RO to disregard the shooter and score targets while the shooter is still shooting the course of fire.  

 

When asked about that, they invariably say, "Oh this is just a club (Level I) match."  

 

If you have issue with this you have to bring it up to the RM and/or MD.  Regardless of their answer it would still be up to you to have a designated representative as the rule states "the competitor’s delegate must be entitled to
accompany the official responsible for scoring in order to verify the scoring."  If your local match makes a practice of this nothing is stopping you from designating that delegate.  Maybe you should have a buddy system in place to make sure you are scored properly if this is an issue for you.

 

If you want to change the culture then you need to get involved possibly.  Meaning becoming a part of the club or clubs running the Level 1 matches in your section.  

 

 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

If you have issue with this you have to bring it up to the MD. 

 

 

PLEASE, PLEASE bring this nonsense up to me at my match. I love giving people that look that says, STFU and leave if you’re not happy.

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, varminter22 said:

So, BlindasaBat, you're saying Troy McManus, DNROI, is wrong?  
 

Uh, are you trolling us now?!?

[varminter22]

No.  I am simply pointing out what the DNROI said.  If you're going to have someone scoring while shooting is in progress, you are supposed to have two (or more) other sets of eyes on the shooter.  

 

Don't shoot me.  Read the correspondence attached.  

Edited March 19, 2023 by varminter22

[lroy]

2 hours ago, Sarge said:

PLEASE, PLEASE bring this nonsense up to me at my match. I love giving people that look that says, STFU and leave if you’re not happy.

 

Leave if they don't like prescoring?

[shred]

Nowhere in the rules does it say two sets of eyes must be watching the shooter at all times.

 

Good practice, yes, required, no.  Hence the "best practices" in the original NROI document links.

 

 

[Sarge]

8 hours ago, lroy said:

 

Leave if they don't like prescoring?

Leave if they don’t like anything. Life is way to short…   

[PK1911]

Many level 1 matches do not have enough RO's to run several squads at once.

have you volunteered to do the scoring?

[Bosshoss]

Yeah we don't have enough RO's to cover each stage with 3 RO's. In fact we have run 14 to 15 person squads at some of the locals because we didn't have enough to cover more squads. 

We have to show people how to run the tablet every match as we don't have the help.

Weather has been crap this spring but we have had lots of new shooters, which is great but they can't run the timer or tablet as they don't have a understanding of what is going on yet.

While new shooters are great it also puts a burden on the already stressed work load of the few RO's we have. 

[sc68cal]

There are shooters that can be supervised by a single RO while the ARO scores, and then there are shooters that must be watched by both ROs and then scoring is done after the range is clear. Use your best judgement for what category each shooter falls into.

[kpbaer]

I always prefer to have two sets of eyes on the shooter. If there is a 180 or something There can't be much argument if two RO's saw it. Doesn't always happen though.

[motosapiens]

As shred astutely notes, 'best practices' are not the same as rules. Yes, it would be great to have more RO's watching everything, but everyone on the squad also wants to clean their mags, prepare for their own run, and finish the match in time for church or football. 

[Thomas H]

On 3/18/2023 at 4:05 PM, Dirty_J said:

Pre-scoring targets should NEVER take precedence over at least 2 sets of eyes on the shooter at any given time. Even at a “level 1”. 
 

“Keeping things flowing” is not as important as safety and competitive equity. 

 

The number of people making statements of opinion as if they were facts should note that in their sentences, every time, they are required to use the word "should" in their absolute statements.

 

"Should" does not mean "required."

 

And as has been said, a "best practice" is not a "required practice" nor is it something that is even possible for everyone all of the time---and it isn't always necessary, either.  

 

 

[Dirty_J]

40 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

The number of people making statements of opinion as if they were facts should note that in their sentences, every time, they are required to use the word "should" in their absolute statements.

 

"Should" does not mean "required."

 

And as has been said, a "best practice" is not a "required practice" nor is it something that is even possible for everyone all of the time---and it isn't always necessary, either.  

 

 

When the "opinion" is also shared by NROI... you should probably take note of it. At a minimum... it's a bad habit and/or "worst practice" and should be avoided if at all possible. 

 

 

[TaterHead]

Targets can easily be scored after “range is clear” and before the stage is even reset. There really is no need to score targets while the stage is being shot. The argument that this type of scoring somehow makes the match go faster is nonsense. Yes, the RO and scorekeeper get done real quick, and then wait for the stage to be reset.

 

Like  many of us who have been doing this for a while, I saw this basic change in how scoring is done happen a few years ago. Like many, I didn’t like scoring while the stage is being shot, but I eventually gave up trying do get shooters to do it “the right way”. As long as the guy with the tablet doesn’t get himself shot, I’m ok.

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, TaterHead said:

Targets can easily be scored after “range is clear” and before the stage is even reset. There really is no need to score targets while the stage is being shot. The argument that this type of scoring somehow makes the match go faster is nonsense. Yes, the RO and scorekeeper get done real quick, and then wait for the stage to be reset.

 

Like  many of us who have been doing this for a while, I saw this basic change in how scoring is done happen a few years ago. Like many, I didn’t like scoring while the stage is being shot, but I eventually gave up trying do get shooters to do it “the right way”. As long as the guy with the tablet doesn’t get himself shot, I’m ok.

I have cut off almost a minute per shooter by prescoring at a major once.  Things were backed up and we had a large spread out stage. As soon as targets were called they were pasted so reset was done by the time the timer RO cleared the stage.
 Make an entire match go faster? Sure can if you are working a bottleneck stage. 

 Some get so hung up in the weeds they can’t get out of their own way. 

[perttime]

^ Sure can.

I shoot IPSC where there are lots of short stages. Long ones can easily become bottlenecks. Fortunately, we usually have enough "staff" for scoring and resetting those quickly. Depending on stage layout, we can "hot score" some targets. I also recall stages where one scoring RO would score the left side, another the right side, and the one with the shooter might have time to score the last targets. A little coordination was required so the guy with the tablet didn't get confused.

[shred]

They did that at Pan Am and World Shoot-- couple scoretakers went down each side of the stage sending scores with hand signs back to a RO with the tablet at the back cranking in scores.  Tapers followed right behind the scoretakers.  Scored and reset extremely fast but the shooter needed a delegate or they would never see any questionable hits.