Limited Optics

[ampleworks]

13 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

But it would be fun

Why not? It's "Limited" and "Optics" married together. Why shouldn't Major PF an option? It's already been shown you can win Limited Nationals shooting minor so why all the fuss? There's distinct advantages of both larger capacity and major scoring.

[RJH]

42 minutes ago, waktasz said:

The whole point is people buying off the shelf 9mm Staccatos and other dopey guns with no division to shoot in right now. Lim Optics having major is never going to happen

 

This right here. Amazing how many people don't get it 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

44 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

 

It's amusing that you mention that because I don't drive electric cars or automatic transmissions, either.

The luddism is strong with this one

 

 

44 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

 

I let my membership lapse and I'm going to continue to enjoy SASS, precision rifle, etc.  USPSA doesn't care about its long time members anymore.

 

There is and always has been a place for experimentation and new things in USPSA.  It's called Open.  And the sport was better for all of us when that's where it stayed.  Now it's just an arms race.

Slide ride optics are no longer either new or experimental.  The future became the present and left you behind.

 

The sport wasn't better for everyone when optics were limited to open.  If it was, CO would have died on the vine.  Quit confusing you with everyone. 

 

I'm also pretty sure you don't know what an arms race is, because you left USPSA to shoot precision rifle.  The irony is strong with that one, where optics alone cost more than a Shadow 2 + SRO.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[waktasz]

Seriously...I shoot a weekly non offical "almost" uspsa match. People shoot AKs and ARs and 22s and also normal USPSA type guns. But probably a third of them have single action carry optics guns (with drop leg holsters lol) because they don't know any better. 

I don't generally think we should cater the rules to newbs that bought the wrong stuff for the sport, but between these guys, and the timmy type people I see in a few pistol training oriented FB groups I'm in, these guns are becoming super popular. 

Also comps on carry guns but that's just dumb

Edited December 29, 2022 by waktasz

[motosapiens]

6 hours ago, Zachjet said:

I understand that.  But then they’d just be creating a “poor man’s open”.  
 

rather then a second CO 

no comps, no 9mm major, no 170mm magazines.... it's not really anything like open. it's just a dot on a limited gun. I expect it would mostly appeal to elderly folks like myself that would never shoot open anyway because it's too damn loud and expensive, but might very well get 4 holes drilled in my existing limited gun.

[motosapiens]

4 hours ago, Nc1911 said:

USPSA rule changes is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic,

 causing a number of people to not renew their membership.

If someone quits the sport because they added a new division, that person was not serious anyway.

[touji]

Just now, motosapiens said:

If someone quits the sport because they added a new division, that person was not serious anyway.

In the same vein, if someone doesn’t come out to shoot because they don’t want to shoot their first couple of matches in a division where they aren’t competitive to figure things out, they aren’t that serious either. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

4 minutes ago, waktasz said:

I don't generally think we should cater the rules to newbs that bought the wrong stuff for the sport, but between these guys, and the timmy type people I see in a few pistol training oriented FB groups I'm in, these guns are becoming super popular.

 

I would be careful about assuming popularity from that sample.  The instagram crowd is loud but pretty small. 

[motosapiens]

51 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

 

It's amusing that you mention that because I don't drive electric cars or automatic transmissions, either.

 

I let my membership lapse and I'm going to continue to enjoy SASS, precision rifle, etc.  USPSA doesn't care about its long time members anymore.

 

USPSA probably does not care about luddites who don't even shoot seriously. I know I don't. As a long time member who actually shoots seriously and practices, I feel like USPSA cares alot about me.

[Zachjet]

1 minute ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:The instagram crowd is loud but pretty small. 

Couldn’t have said it better

[RJH]

15 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Seriously...I shoot a weekly non offical "almost" uspsa match. People shoot AKs and ARs and 22s and also normal USPSA type guns. But probably a third of them have single action carry optics guns (with drop leg holsters lol) because they don't know any better. 

I don't generally think we should cater the rules to newbs that bought the wrong stuff for the sport, but between these guys, and the timmy type people I see in a few pistol training oriented FB groups I'm in, these guns are becoming super popular. 

Also comps on carry guns but that's just dumb

 

And even if you're just a guy who's been doing this almost 20 years, limited optics as defined in the little paper they put out is just a fun as hell division. So while you're going to pick up a few tactical timmies, you might pick them up with a Glock and a dot just the same.

 

But a lot of us people who've been around a while really like Sao guns. And shooting cheap ammo and high cap is fun as well. And now that they got dots worked out pretty well, those are nice too. It's a division like carryops but where you get to shoot a gun you actually want to shoot instead of a gun you have to shoot. And not be at a competitive disadvantage while doing it. Add in that you can buy some pretty solid guns for under 3 Grand, some that are way under 3 Grand and even considerably less than people are spending on carry ops guns now that they don't really want to shoot, and it's a win win win win win 

 

Honestly the more I think about it, the less I understand any of the hostility towards it, especially if it is in its own division.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 Add in that you can buy some pretty solid guns for under 3 Grand, some that are way under 3 Grand and even considerably less than people are spending on carry ops guns now that they don't really want to shoot

 

What's a "pretty solid gun" that's considerably less than a Shadow 2?

 

I got a BNIB Shadow 2 optics ready for $1200 a month ago.  I've sunk a grand total of $100 in mods, $80 of which was a set of grip panels that don't suck, and it's good to go.

 

Repeating a lie won't make it true.

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

https://www.ssusa.org/content/analyzing-the-7-year-history-of-uspsa-carry-optics-competition/

 

Thanks for sharing Rowdy.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Boomstick303

[RJH]

8 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

What's a "pretty solid gun" that's considerably less than a Shadow 2?

 

I got a BNIB Shadow 2 optics ready for $1200 a month ago.  I've sunk a grand total of $100 in mods, $80 of which was a set of grip panels that don't suck, and it's good to go.

 

Repeating a lie won't make it true.

 

There are places selling custom CZ blasters for carryops that are $3,000. The Accu Shadow 2 or whatever it is cost over two grand. Obviously you can shoot a canic in carry ops now that cost 600 bucks, I was never saying that you could buy Sao guns for less than any possible carryops gun, only that you could definitely spend less on a solid Sao gun than people are spending on some carry-ops guns

 

Bull armory makes guns in the $1,500 range that would fit right in with limited optics, Springfield prodigy can be had under $1,500, staccato makes one for about $2,300, sig has their X5 or whatever it's called for $2,200. Any of those would make a pretty solid gun.

 

Hell, a Rock Island with a bomar plate and a trigger job for under a thousand is less than a shadow 2 and is a gun that is capable of winning Nationals. 

 

There are also a few single action CZ options that would fit right in, even including your Shadow 2 you just have to learn how to take the safety off

Edited December 29, 2022 by RJH

[RJH]

9 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

 

 

I got a BNIB Shadow 2 optics ready for $1200 a month ago.  I've sunk a grand total of $100 in mods, $80 of which was a set of grip panels that don't suck, and it's good to go.

 

Repeating a lie won't make it true.

 

LOL as I add this up you have the same money in this as I do a Springfield prodigy (well, I guess I spent 19 more dollars). You just can't make this s*** up

Edited December 29, 2022 by RJH

[Boomstick303]

16 hours ago, Dazhi said:

Yes, I know myself shooting a 9mm Titan iron sight can beat myself shooting a Stock 2 iron sight by about 3-5%.

 

Thanks for sharing @Dazhi.

 

Have you done any comparisons with dots?

 

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Boomstick303

[BritinUSA]

6 hours ago, Cuz said:

Truthfully, I think the solution would be to get rid of Carry Optics and roll those shooters into Limited Optics. 

This is essentially what LO is if it stays as Minor only. The ONLY difference will be the trigger.
 

This is just nonsense, either keep the same rules as Limited and add a dot, or change CO to LO, then change Production to 15 rounds, and introduce Production Optics at 15.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

6 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

LOL as I add this up you have the same money in this as I do a Springfield prodigy (well, I guess I spent 19 more dollars). You just can't make this s*** up

 

Except Prodigies are a s#!tfest of guns that choke and Shadows just run

[Johnny_Chimpo]

10 minutes ago, RJH said:

 you just have to learn how to take the safety off

 

I don't need to I have strong hands so DA is not a problem

[ltdmstr]

The popularity of RDS on carry/duty guns, isn't because they're an improvement over irons.  They're popular because they allow the low effort shooter to compete/perform at a competent level with minimal time and training commitment.  That's true for USPSA, LEOs, and pretty much everyone.  Doesn't mean they aren't fun to shoot and another nice toy to add to the safe.  But a better tool for the job, I don't think so.  Same goes for 9mm use and minor pf.  As for people cheering the demise of Limited, I'm sure you have your reasons.  But, it kinda sucks they are going to kill the only division that uses major pf outside of open.

[motosapiens]

12 minutes ago, RJH said:

Bull armory makes guns in the $1,500 range that would fit right in with limited optics, Springfield prodigy can be had under $1,500, staccato makes one for about $2,300, sig has their X5 or whatever it's called for $2,200. Any of those would make a pretty solid gun.

 

 

Yeah, there's a few people shooting budget el cheapo guns in limited already. But the overwhelming majority of serious limited competitors are shooting high end 2011's, and everyone else is at a disadvantage. that will be the case in any division where 2011's are allowed.

[ltdmstr]

6 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Except Prodigies are a s#!tfest of guns that choke and Shadows just run

 

Prodigies I've seen have zero issues.  Basically, clean the gun, maybe adjust the extractor, and GTG.  Mine ran 100% with factory ammo, reloads, and every type of magazine I tried (Springfield, SV, STI, Atlas).  Same for all the others I've encountered.  Those who can't get their Prodigy sorted without sending it back to the factory should prob avoid 1911/2011s altogether.

[Zachjet]

2 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Prodigies I've seen have zero issues.  Basically, clean the gun, maybe adjust the extractor, and GTG.  Mine ran 100% with factory ammo, reloads, and every type of magazine I tried (Springfield, SV, STI, Atlas).  Same for all the others I've encountered.  Those who can't get their Prodigy sorted without sending it back to the factory should prob avoid 1911/2011s altogether.

Do you have a 5” or 4.25? 
 

 

and you can be into a tanfo for way under 3k 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 minute ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Prodigies I've seen have zero issues.  Basically, clean the gun, maybe adjust the extractor, and GTG.  Mine ran 100% with factory ammo, reloads, and every type of magazine I tried (Springfield, SV, STI, Atlas).  Same for all the others I've encountered.  Those who can't get their Prodigy sorted without sending it back to the factory should prob avoid 1911/2011s altogether.

 

Plenty of vids on youtube of these guns choking.  Are they all?  Of course not.  But other types of pistols do not do this out of the box.

 

Nobody should have to get their pistol sorted.  Anyone that willingly signs up for that shouldn't expect many to agree.  That dog don't hunt and is why many avoid 1911s and 2011s altogether.  I sure did.

[ltdmstr]

I have a 4.25 but have shot both with no issues.  Wasn't expecting to use it as a competition gun.  It was kind of a point of purchase impulse buy.